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Comment by clickety_clack | Hacker News Reader

Given that many of our current-day subterranean environments are also covered in art and strewn with drug paraphernalia, can we really say that it played a key role in the rise of the civilization?

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All you can really say is that negligence is corrosive to civilization, and maybe that drugs act as an amplifier of sorts for society's illnesses and qualities.

could also say a corroded civilization makes vulnerable people feel bad and drugs make them feel good

drugs have been making people feel good (and messing with their sense of motivation to behave responsibly) regardless of society's state

That's focusing on low class drug use. Elite drug use leaves a very different trail and has a different impact.

Right, and the elites can deal with it them selves, they have money. They are definitely not directly responsible for the "subterranean environments covered in art and strewn with drug paraphernalia".

You can 100% say that European civilization was heavily, heavily influenced by the consumption of alcohol.

What do you mean "was"?

Supposedly there was a time when drinking beer was often safer than drinking water from available sources, including for children. I guess there are levels

They didn't make Arnold a saint for nothing.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arnold_of_Soissons

A lot of it was weaker small beer though too, like 1-2%.

Each person was going through a gallon a day though, that’s still 4-5 standard drinks which is a crazy amount to drink all day everyday.

Spread throughout the day you wouldn't be more than half a standard drink deep at a time in terms of psychological effects.

Terrible for your liver though.

Yeah, like this zombie civilisation: https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=i2k7KQ5L5Jg I am not sure if you can say it’s raising or falling by their posture

My spidy sense is tingling on this video. The related recommendations on the side include these videos:

In particular it is the thumbnails that look identical.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l6NeLNYCGo0 The Zombies Of America! (i have never seen anything like this..) by Frank van Dam.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=snN0PNZVWNA Inside Philadelphia's Real Life Zombie Outbreak by Tyler Oliveira

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=htZCX1Y0ZiA THE ZOMBIES OF AMERICA (I'VE NEVER SEEN ANYTHING LIKE THIS) by Joe HaTTab

fun fact - "drug" - german "droge" originally means "dried plant" - e.g. herbs, teas etc

Yeah, it's really gross that coffee cups are left all over the place. But yeah, rise in caffeine consumption in place of ethanol is thought to have enabled and fueled the enlightenment, and been a major factor in the industrial revolution.

I meant the graffiti and needles in tunnels and under bridges etc.

I know what you meant. But the words you used apply to my reply too. It's a reminder that any attempt at an objective definition of "drugs" includes alcohol and caffeine, and that there is a huge cultural component to "good drugs" and "bad drugs". In fact, coffee was considered one of the bad drugs by many cultures it when first introduced to them - including European culture.

"If I couldn't, three times a day, be allowed to drink my little cup of coffee, in my anguish I will turn into a shriveled-up roast goat" https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Schweigt_stille%2C_plaudert_ni...

Correlation and causation...

I think there might be multiple groups in play there

Look up how much the signatories of the constitutional convention drank the night before signing the constitution. Alcohol consumption remained massive during the 1800s by our standards, people just drank we more than we do and probably more than in the 1600s and 1700s because distilled alcohol became cheap and widespread while you only had access to beer and wine before that.

I believe in the US alcohol consumption peaked in the mid 19th century. It was common for alcohol to be provided on the job and for drinking breaks like coffee breaks.

Drinking culture changed more dramatically in English-speaking countries in late 1800s/early 1900s (temperance movement) than elsewhere.

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