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Comment by bux93 | Hacker News Reader

Note that the caps were introduced because the EU already had widespread use of bank cards, but local schemes were being replaced with Mastercard/Visa debit - the caps were brought in to prevent the duopoly from profiteering. (Apple/Google pay also use Mastercard/Visa virtual cards in the EU.) Before the cap, credit cards had way higher fees and there were some reward cards, which led to merchants simply not accepting Mastercard/Visa. Local schemes included Mastercard-owned Maestro (used in Germany, The Netherlands and for some reason Brazil) but also local schemes like Belgium's Bancontact/MrCash. It's unfortunate some of those schemes didn't just merge and started competing in foreign countries as well.

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At least in Germany as far as I'm aware all banking cards are in fact "simple" visa cards who uses "V-pay", since 2012/2014?

Personally I "like" or prefer V-pay because it made payment in the EU more easily for me without the need of a credit card even 8 years ago. Since the pandemic, I only pay for a (real) credit card (with daily billing) because some goods or services can only be paid with a "real" card, like more expensive cars at a car renting company or sometimes hotel rooms and the like.

In general I try to pay with cash so nobody needs to pay extra fees. But more and more smaller businesses prefer electronic payments. Then I use the banking card with V-pay and to state it again, the real visa card is only used when no other options are available.

> o nobody needs to pay extra fees

Processing cash is by far >not free<! In fact, it costs a lot of money due to all the things involved (counting/collection/recycling etc). Anf it inwolves additional risks for the handling party.

People often say that but does the cost for handling cash really scale (even approximately) proportionally with the number of transactions or revenue?

Or is it more binary that you have to decide, you either handle any cash and have the cost associated with it, or you refuse to take cash at all? If the latter is the case, then avoiding cash altogether seems somewhat unrealistic where I am from. And if it doesn't scale then it makes a lot of sense cost-wise to try to do as many of your transactions with cash as possible.

Depends on, sure there is some "efficient frontier" where it flips.

Think about all the supermarket chains, handling millions of cash daily; in my region, those are relying heavily on outsourced cash recycling companies - why? Its more effort/cost if they would do this themself.

> but does the cost for handling cash really scale (even approximately) proportionally with the number of transactions or revenue?

Yes, it sounds weird but it does

- Providing change is a pain and it's a "fixed time" cost

- Moving money around (also some banks charge for money deposits for commercial accounts)

- Dealing with "shrinkage" in various ways (even if you have insurance)

In the past I handled cash as an employee and as a volunteer. Like even a quiet night at a bar can sum up to a few thousand EUR.

Yes handling cash is not free. But compared to some charges or fees it's often quiet cheap.

Sure you need to think a head like how much small change money you will need or how much cash for change in general. You also need kind of routine and flow for counting and handling but even if I had to count up to 10k EUR in small bills t does not needed more then half an hour incl putting it into the safe or on the way home putting it into the banking machine... At least in Germany it's not that big of a deal breaker.

half an our - every day.

I know of a large restaurant chain with some "bigger" branches: They often have to count two or three times with different people to be sure, that the amount is correct. Every evening.

Then you have transport companies which pick up the cach (or refill ATM) - you pay there for every time they stop, and you pay a tiny fraction per bill processed etc. (though, most restaurants do not use these services)

Then you finally have the very high risk of getting robbed.

You just triggered my PTSD. Worked in a gas station in college and changing over the till was a PITA -- I had to account for every cent, could be written up over 50 cents (too much or too little) and it was always this crazy dance to change over when we were busy since it messed with the counts.

Sorry! :-)

I know: It is just hell! There is a gas station near my location, which closes the door from 23.45 to 24.00 for just doing this and handing over to the group.

It's funny. I have lurked or followed the gas station anecdote of yours but from the other side.

After school I've worked at a gas station as well and we did not need to close because the shift swap was the same as over the day.

You exert your cashier(?) and the next one inserts the new. And you count in the office and take the time you need.

Half an hour incl. Some other minor takes was part of the shift. Simple as that.

That time costs money, the safe costs money, having cash attracts criminal elements like robbers or dishonest employees, your employee might get robbed on their way to the banking machine making it a workplace hazard, security guards costs money.

In 2009 Sweden had 58 armored car robberies, in 2018 there were 1. This used to be a big concern in Sweden, now it's basically a nonissue.

There were 1154 store robberies in 2009, in 2018 there were 515. Muggings are also down considerably. 2022 was the first year with zero bank robberies. This is mostly thanks to the much lower use of cash.

https://www.riksbank.se/sv/betalningar--kontanter/sa-betalar...

https://bra.se/download/18.54e1fb8a19c479963d63601e/17731372...

I'm quite opposite. I avoid any places that don't accept card payments, because it usually means they are avoiding taxes. And I don't have cash on me, or wallet. Only phone or sometimes only my garmin watch (with garmin pay).

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