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Comment by toomuchtodo | Hacker News Reader

Which is why efforts by China to stand up independent cross border payment rails are important. You have to cut the US out of any ability to control activities outside of their boundaries.

China, Egypt to do away with the use of the US dollar - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49555056 - September 2026

China nears launch of mBridge as alternative to Swift - https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48636931 - June 2026

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and Europe. Europe should also decouple itself from the U.S. as much as it is possible, and not repeat the mistake of overreliance with China. not because China is somehow worse, but because you always should be able to say "no", no matter how good your partners are

They are.

https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=49225112

Europe is decoupling itself all ready also. Using SEPA-Inst and wero.

Unfortunately decoupling payments within the EU is insufficient if the US can just threaten to sanction your bank, and in doing so force the bank to drop you as a customer. Even in the presence of an internal European payments network, those banks still need to transact with the US and other US-sphere countries...

For now, but not forever. Skate to where the puck is going to be. Decoupling continues, with the target being independence. Quote this comment five years from now.

Not forever but long enough: there's no foreseeable future where the USA becomes an economy small enough to not be worth trading in.

For most banks the ability to sell financial instruments which end up interacting with the US financial institutions is fundamental.

No but then you can have local bank that will not have US interactions but can still serve you. Since the French judge of the IPC was sanctioned, it’s clear that the EU must completely decouple from the US.

The more times the US uses this as a weapon, the less power it holds and the more effort other countries go through to decouple.

The payment system has to be decoupled first, and then banks can have nothing to fear from US sanctions.

> The payment system has to be decoupled first, and then banks can have nothing to fear from US sanctions.

I'm not sure the payment system is most banks primary concern. Being able to buy/sell US securities turns out to be a fairly fundamental part of the modern economy

Any EU back that's holding US securities deserves to fail. And then have its leader get jailed.

The US pressured Europe last time, in 2019, into aligning with their sanctions. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Instrument_in_Support_of_Trade... The Iran situation could have gone better if trade and JCPOA nuclear oversight had continued.

So the rest of the world has the option of relying on China instead? How is that better?

A small third party at the junction of two giants is infinitely more powerful than a small third party obliged to be the client of one.

Sometimes, yes. In the case of bankings systems combined with payment systems you could end up reliant on both. If the US sanctions you only people using a Chinese OS to make payments through a Chinese payment system will be unaffected and vice-versa. Either will be able to take your economy down.

TBH China is not currently bombing a foreign country for no reason and it is not threatening to invade its allies.

It’s not a particularly high bar, but of the big powers, only China currently meets it.

And I know you will say „but payment networks are not a warfare question, they are an economic question“ but that kind of breaks down when they are used to sanction ICC judges presiding over war crime cases.

China has invaded and conquered other countries before, has occupied territories and clearly plans to invade at least one neighbour id it gets the chance. Its hugely oppressive internally and is wiping out minority cultures by any means required.

But for now at least, it’s doing less of that than the US

Why did I say it and get deadened and then 2 hours later you said it and weren't.

100%. I absolutely would prefer my own country to be a global superpower, but it isn’t.

However, currently, only US and Russia have publicly threatened my country, and both are currently engaged in a trade war with us.

China on the other hand is selling us cheap batteries and solar panels.

Free Tibet.

It can be better, if the alternative mechanism is designed with safeguards against hijacking by a single state. Naturally, the threat of sanctions can always bully banks or states into acting one way or another, but at least it would not be through the cutting off of money transfers between willing parties.

Of course, that's an _if_, not something to just take for granted.

Competition is better for everyone

The BRICS organization is precisely setup to not rely on the single actor, China included. They all have strong disagreements, but they all agree having a single global bully (USA) is bad for all involved parties.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/BRICS

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