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Comment by jjtheblunt | Hacker News Reader

Apple's hypervisor.framework lets other OS instances run very very fast with the UTM app (open source on github, but i use the prebuilt version from the App Store). In my case i've used arm native linuxes (arch with various compositors, kde, gnome, fedora) all on M2, M2 Max, M5 and the experience is indistinguishable from native. MacOS is running too. I think hardcore graphics folks might want direct accelerator access, or there'd be curiously little reason for Asahi (other than that it's awesome work).

I use UTM in emulation mode, NOT Qemu simulation mode, which is wasteful.

just my $0.02.

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What is the purpose here? You are still stuck with a full blown MacOS running the system no? That is what Asahi tries to replace, not the other way around.

I'd recommend reading up on it, and perhaps trying it, because it's very useful.

For folks lamenting that the (awesome) Asahi efforts are challenged by reverse engineering of changes from M2 to M3, and so on, those changes vanish into the abstraction, but their benefits do not. That's why i switched from Asahi a couple years ago to UTM in apple silicon hypervisor mode.

https://developer.apple.com/documentation/hypervisor https://apps.apple.com/us/app/utm-virtual-machines

The point is some people who want to run Linux mostly do not want MacOS. You suggest to "just run MacOS" (the thing they want to avoid) and virtualize Linux. That defeats the entire purpose, then you could just as well skip the VM and run Mac apps. Yes, there are a few specialized applications people might need Linux for but that's mostly not why they install an entirely different OS. For the occasional obscure programm that doesn't exist in the Apple ecosystem VMs are a good option, absolutely. Everything you do in the VM still runs on Mac though and you depend on Apple for security, privacy and trust in general.

yeah i get it, and run native linux myself, but also have apple silicon. for some, but not everyone (to your point), the apple hypervisor.framework is itself an adequate trick.

The purpose is to be able to run a decent Linux setup while also having MacOS for things. Not everyone is stuck on the anti-Apple train; some of us put software on all the platforms and thus using the hypervisor for this use case is quite comfortable. Disclaimer: personal experience - I too use UTM for highly productive things..

Wanting to run a single OS at a time is anti Apple now? Run MacOS or run Linux, why run both and create more problems than it solves and waste resources?

Run both when you need to build for both. Why not run both when you need to?

yes, but you're arguing for running both whenever you need (only) linux?

I’d need both, so I’d use both.

It serves the exact same purpose that WSL does in Windows.

You can run any flavor of Linux you like in a virtual machine, while booted into the native OS.

I just don't trust macOS enough to run the hw, AsahiLinux/Linux Kernel I do, I love Apple hardware but want to run Linux.

I spent this past weekend giving UTM w/ Apple Virtualization a shot and can confirm that it really does work fantastically well! The only downside seems to be that it's not possible to pass USB devices through to the VM guest yet?

This misses the point entirely. What happens when apple inevitably discontinues support for this hardware.

i have no idea how you think apple silicon will discontinue support for itself.

the hypervisor framework documentation, that i linked above, is pretty clear; the linux builds for arm run extremely fast on apple silicon because hypervisor framework gives them hardware access, in some subsystems directly (memory mapping for example), in other systems through a shim (graphics hardware).

Apple discontinues support for this HW, not Apple discontinues support for running Linux in a hypervisor.

when apple discontinues support for older hardware, it doesn't get OS software updates. that doesn't disable the hardware from running the latest OS before OS updates for the hardware were ended. On the frozen-in-time OS, you'd still have a working instance of apple silicon hypervisor wrapping optimized drivers that make whatever linux arm build you're running still see the hardware.

Some people would like to keep running a system that’s connected to the internet that’s still receiving security updates. Running an outdated host isn’t the best idea.

So you are wrapping Linux in an insecure and never updating wrapper connected to the internet?

Sounds awesome!

The same thing that has previously happened with discontinued Intel Macs or PC hardware that is no longer supported by Windows.

You can still boot Linux natively on it.

Since the hardware will no longer get security updates for the firmware you should stop using it and move to a newer MacBook.

Linux doesn't solve the issue of not getting security updates anymore. For example the FCC does not allow letting users write arbitrary firmware they can run on their devices so this means you legally can't update the Bluetooth or Wifi firmware and need an update from Apple.

Absurdism

>§ 2.944 Software defined radios.

>(a) Manufacturers must take steps to ensure that only software that has been approved with a software defined radio can be loaded into the radio.

https://www.law.cornell.edu/cfr/text/47/2.944

> Linux doesn't solve the issue of not getting security updates anymore. For example the FCC does not allow letting users write arbitrary firmware they can run on their devices so this means you legally can't update the Bluetooth or Wifi firmware and need an update from Apple.

My laptop has a wifi+bluetooth card that I can replace in 10 minutes. If and when that card is abandoned by its manufacturer (as Broadcom has done before), I can replace it with a better one.

I don't think you understand what Asahi Linux is.

This isn't about running VMs.

I used Asahi linux on M1 for a couple years, and dual booted, and worked as an engineer in an inner part of Apple. I definitely know what Asahi is.

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