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Comment by estearum | Hacker News Reader

The behavior described in the immediately above comment (ordering multiples and returning ones you don't like) is not abuse. The behavior described above that (lying about a defective item) is abuse.

Dealing with returns is the tradeoff that online sellers make in order not to put a store in every city or to deal with retail arrangements.

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> The behavior described in the immediately above comment (ordering multiples and returning ones you don't like) is not abuse.

Oh yes it is. Buying something you know you don't plan to keep is abuse. If you ran a store, would you be fine with 2/3 of your orders being returned? A good litmus test for "am I being an asshole" is "what would the world look like if everyone behaved like me?"

You should do some reading on the birth of ecommerce. This was a very explicit tradeoff that these businesses decided to make. That's why free returns are pervasive.

Now whether it's a good thing wrt the environment etc...

I'm aware of how ecommerce got started. The fact that some businesses did the math to estimate that only a small percentage of customers are assholes, doesn't mean they aren't assholes. With apologies to patio11, "The optimal amount of return abusers is non-zero."

Buying 3 new-in-box $1000 cameras and returning 2 of them covered with your smudgy fingerprints is abuse, no matter how you slice it. If everyone did it, those cameras would cost twice as much. I'm saddened but not surprised people are defending that behavior here.

> Buying 3 new-in-box $1000 cameras and returning 2 of them covered with your smudgy fingerprints is abuse

I agree. What percentage of online returns do you think is similar to this scenario?

What percentage of "buy N and return N-1" return patterns (which you believe to be abusive) is people buying multiple $1,000+ pieces of electronics equipment, versus say 3 sizes of shoes or 3 colors of a dress?

My guess is the former case, which I agree is abusive, is <1% of such return patterns. Partially because it's a legitimately stupid way to shop for those types of items and requires significant credit, while buying multiple sizes/colors of items like clothing is a completely sensible way to shop.

I remember common advice on HN (and indeed from Apple Store employees) when Apple repairs were taking a while was just "buy a new one and return it when you get yours back".

You are mixing up "being an asshole" with "doing abuse". Ordering 10 t-shirts and returning 9 of them could be classified as assholery (subjectively, I'd classify it as that), while it's very likely not abuse, we'd have to check the ToS of a specific seller.

I'm using "abuse" as a general English word, not as jargon defined by a specific retailer.

Most online shops ToS say "we can ban you at any time for any reason", so their lawyers' definition of the word wouldn't be relevant here anyway.

There are companies that cater to these types of people. Their purpose is to allow you to have things shipped to you so that you can pick the ones you like before return the things you do not. They claim to be personal stylists by learning what you like by what you keep and return. It's not abuse, it's how they want it to work

It's also abusive for Amazon to delay your order for a week with their Super Spiteful Shipping, pushing you to sign up for their sunk cost fallacy subscription. When I'm in the middle of some project, I've got no qualms about ordering 2 or 3 different types of some part I need to hedge. I've been burned too many times with ordering only one type, having it have a problem, and then having to wait again. Constant games with prices is another one that induces orders from me that are destined to be returned. When a price drops significantly, the times I've asked customer service about having the price adjusted they tell me to just return and rebuy (hoping I'll be too lazy), so that's what I do. It's abuse all around, I'm not going to put moral weight on my own shoulders while the amoral company has no such burden.

Buying 3 different sizes of a shirt because manufacturers refuse to standardize on sizing information and returning 2/3 of them seems like a standard practice for buying clothes online. Not sure why you think the stores don't account for the returns.

The return policies are indeed meant to be used the way you find problematic. You can buy a computer to use while yours is being repaired. Then return it. Employees will instruct you to do this.

For clothing it makes sense, also much of the price of clothing is often illusory, the marginal cost for the piece of clothing is tremendously less than the price paid.

Not so for consumer electronics

Oh yeah that's pretty insane for consumer electronics.

It's not just an online thing. I know people that do retail therapy knowing full well they intend to return it. I don't have the same experience, so it is befuddling to me. Something totally different than just walking around in a store and looking but not buying.

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