Comment by xp84 | Hacker News Reader

Comment by xp84 | Hacker News Reader

While I'm definitely not inclined to trust whoever wants to introduce new barriers, part of me actually thinks that the availability of second-level names (e.g. example.com), instantly, for trivially-low prices... maybe you could make a case that we get more harm than good from it.

If you're starting a new commercial venture, something that cost $1000 and took a week would still be one of the cheapest and fastest parts of that process. If you're doing a hobby project or a speculative startup, using a subdomain would be fine. It worked for Altavista.digital.com and Google.stanford.edu.

The argument for shifting (back) to a model like that would be that the hierarchial DNS served as a chain of responsibility. Today a lot of companies irresponsibly use dozens of domains, presumably either because they think people are too stupid to learn to type an additional period in a name, or because their internal dysfunction makes provisioning a subdomain an 11-month project. It's terrible that citibankonline.com, citibank.com, citicards.com, citientertainment.com, citi.com, and citigroup.com are all official domains that Citigroup uses. A user seeing a link to, say, 'citicardbenefits dot com' has zero methods of establishing provenance.

And of course, under conditions where 2LDs were expensive again, 'free subdomains' would certainly still be a thing, as they even back were when .coms were $50 or whatever. We had cjb.net, a bunch of clever '.to' domains, afraid.org, etc.

Under the 'modern' system, the problem of "who do we need to contact about an obvious scam site" has been pushed up to the largest possible scale - the GTLD registries, whereas a scammer abusing a "free subdomain" would be shut down by the admins at that second level.

In the end though, I admit we're stuck with the current way, or, (possibly) some hare-brained KYC scheme that will subject everyone to a high level of government censorship and make anonymity unavailable to good actors who really deserve it.

I find that the ccTLD for my country strikes a pretty good balance.

It’s still cheap to register and renew, but requires a traceable real connection to a company or a person:

> 5. Requirements for the applicant - who can apply?

> Organisations

> 5.1 The applicant must be an organisation that is registered in the Norwegian Central Coordinating Register for Legal Entities, see the list of which types of organisations can apply (Appendix E). The organisation must in fact conduct business and/or have activities and a presence according to information specified in the Central Coordinating Register, and it must document its actual existence if Norid requests such documentation. The organisation must have a Norwegian postal address.

> 5.2 Each organisation may at any time subscribe to up to 100 domain names directly under .no. In addition, an organisation may subscribe to up to 5 domain names under each geographic domain to which the organisation belongs, as well as 5 domain names under each category domain to which the organisation belongs.

> Private individuals

> 5.3 The applicant must be over age 18, registered in the Norwegian National Population Register with a Norwegian national identity number and have a Norwegian postal address.

> 5.4 Each private individual may at any time subscribe to up to 5 domain names directly under .no. In addition, a private individual may subscribe to up to 5 domain names under each geographic domain to which the person in question belongs, as well as 5 domain names under priv.no.

https://www.norid.no/en/om-domenenavn/regelverk-for-no/#5.-R...

It works well, and on top of that it is still possible for someone to host content on behalf of someone else to protect the anonymity of that other person, for example by as you said handing out free subdomains to others and handling complaints about scams and other undesirable or illegal things. With all the responsibility and legal liability that doing so incurs.

> If you're starting a new commercial venture, something that cost $1000 and took a week would still be one of the cheapest and fastest parts of that process.

That's highly dependent on where you live.

I don't agree with the 3rd level domain structure. In fact, I don't think ICANN should allow registrars to sell those without clear disclosure informing registrants they're not ICANN domains. At the very least, registrars shouldn't be doing that to their customers.

In terms of abuse handling, you don't want to be a sibling to some unknown person or entity.

> Under the 'modern' system, the problem of "who do we need to contact about an obvious scam site" has been pushed up to the largest possible scale - the GTLD registries, whereas a scammer abusing a "free subdomain" would be shut down by the admins at that second level.

But I want my legitimate domain pushed up to the largest possible scale with a clear set of rules and independence from other registrants. In terms of governance, the average registrant couldn't tell you the difference between a 2nd level domain and a 3rd level domain and the 3rd level domain comes along with additional risk.

As soon as you add 3rd level domains, that's an extra party that can drop your domain. The 3rd level domain providers don't have a standard abuse handling mechanism. I think most of them try to defer to ICANN's rules, but there's nothing that says they must do that. As far as I know, ICANN only deals in TLDs [1].

What happens if you're on a 3rd level domain, there's an influx of abusive behavior by sibling domains, and the 2nd level owner doesn't do a good job of handling it? Does the 2nd level domain get banned by the gTLD? What kind of collateral damage does that cause?

Maybe you create something like the public suffix list, but then it's the same problem with more complexity regarding responsibilities.

I do agree with the general sentiment of letting people pay to prove trust. I think it's really hard to come up with a number that makes sense, but I'd be willing to pay $X into an abuse handling fund if it bought me extra trust for my domain(s).

1. https://www.icann.org/en/contracted-parties/registry-operato...

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