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Comment by cromka | Hacker News Reader

I have attended festivals for more than half of my life and they're all suspectable to the same gentrification problem as cool neighborhoods: fun/artsy people create fun environments, fun environments attract others who genuinely appreciate fun/artsy but are professionals themselves, professionals attract other professionals but shallower with more money. Or, in short, they get hugged to death. Rinse, repeat.

Same thing is happening with Garbicz festival in Poland, arguably Europe's Burning Man equivalent for many.

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There was a sentence early on in the article, “San Francisco has always been a place people came to re-create themselves — running from something, running toward something exciting and unknown, going as far as they could for a shot at a new life.” although I think the tense there should probably be more “used to be” than “has always been” thanks to the same gentrification influence. I feel like much of California has had the same thing happen to it. When I first went to Los Angeles in 1986, it seemed a magical place with so much potential, but the expense and population growth over the last 40 years makes it nearly unrecognizable compared to the place I lived in then (I moved back to Chicago 15 years ago so it’s in the past).

When you read about people coming to California in the 60s and 70s (and somewhat in the 80s), it had that same magical quality that Burning Man had in the early years and has suffered the same kinds of changes. I wonder what the 2026 equivalent of going to California is now, if such a thing even exists or can exist.

Dalton Caldwell and Michael Seibel have talked about a similar phenomenon applied to YC and startups in general. It seems that early on it was a weird and nonconformist career move, but now it has become something that is done out of the same conforming impulse that going to school or working at a big firm mean to an individual in society.

Before when you had a startup it was because you had a passion and an idea.

Now the passion is the idea of the startup and a big exit.

Totally different groups of people.

Tech startups aren't a great example.

Tech improves and stabilizes. Always will.

Startup ideas back then were actually useful bleeding edge work.

Now it's all git pull and import the world with a languages package manager; no more need to optimize and normalize low level code.

> When you read about people coming to California in the 60s and 70s (and somewhat in the 80s), it had that same magical quality that Burning Man had in the early years and has suffered the same kinds of changes. I wonder what the 2026 equivalent of going to California is now, if such a thing even exists or can exist.

I look at LA and I look at cities in China and it makes LA look like a rural suburb the difference in population density is so vast.

LA (city, county, metro area) has a fairly low population density even compared to other large US cities.

> I wonder what the 2026 equivalent of going to California is now, if such a thing even exists or can exist.

I think this becomes increasingly difficult, because the timelines become so short with almost-instant information desimination, higher inequality and increased mobility for everyone. A place or event can go from underground -> awesome -> gentrified -> 'dead' in a manner of a couple of years now.

I live in a neighborhood that is currently being gentrified; 10 years ago no non-local wanted to live here, 5 years ago, it was the place to be, today young/hip people are beginning to move elsewhere again. Newly rented-out flats are now thrice as expensive as 2020, and you can see in real time how bars and restaurants are replaced with more expensive alternatives. When I compare this with other neighborhoods in Berlin (eg. Bergmannkiez or Kollwitzkiez), the timeline has roughly halfed.

That emdash followed by a list sets off my llm detector.

This another way to say it's "played out". the thing is, whatever feels meh now is the next California, so it's never obvious. it starts small and gain momentum and network effects like a snowball rolling down a hill, with a chance or chances of getting stuck.

I always considered Garbicz a very commercial festival even from the very beginning. The ticket was expensive, food was included, all infrastructure already built and you party and leave without much thought at all. The people also had little regard for the beautiful nature and lake - A pretty typical techno festival catering for the Berlin clubscene.

Burns usually are completely different. Yeah Burning Man is super commercial now, but smaller more obscure burns happen all over the world, including Europe. They run on participant preparation and donation, these still embody what Burning Man was originally about

That's fair. Most recently, though, Garbicz started inviting bona-fide Instagram influencers, which I know first hand from people who worked with them as their personal butters of sorts. So maybe it was a long game all along, considering those festivals can nowadays sell for tens of millions...

> fun/artsy people create fun environments, fun environments attract others who genuinely appreciate fun/artsy but are professionals themselves, professionals attract other professionals but shallower with more money.

This. The tourist:creator ratio increases until the organization begins to cater to tourists.

The two things Burning Man should have built into its culture were (1) if you don't create personally then you're not welcome (ostensibly, but normalized flying into catered theme camps is so far past the gross line...) & (2) continual mutation (fuck the Principles; burns should each be updating their own every year).

SF got rich and then succumbed to the same human faults they used to mock.

This low cost -> artist -> rich people movement of neighborhoods is something I observed happening in some cities I’ve lived in and it amazes me that there isn’t much lecture/research on the theme. From what I’ve observed is that artists will search for cheaper neighborhoods where they can rent space for their art, this attracts young people (students) usually the progressive type, then comes the bars and restaurants after these people, then artists became more known, the bars/restaurants became better (as the young/students start the gain buying power) and finally the rich arrive and with them, the real state speculation that ultimately makes the land price too expensive for anything other than art galleries. The artist scene then moves to another neighborhood starting the cycle again….

There is a lot of material on this theme. One place to start is a book like "The Last Bohemia" or a general search for books about Williamsburg (the Brooklyn neighbourhood) at the library. Lots of first-hand stories about how that pattern of gentrification plays out.

Yep. These sorts of evens are better when they have a predetermined end date. Closing down sale, never to be repeated.

Then the organisers can regroup and start something new.

Rather than the inevitable alternative of morphing in to something unintended, undesired.

Better to reminisce about good old days rather than the decay.

> unintended, undesired

Problem is, the more of them I've seen, the more I am convinced they are nowadays a premeditated long game: have cool people plant the seed, then sell it 10 years later. Same thing with LGBTQ communities attracted/coerced into certain neighborhoods.

Not for the festivals that I know. They are either always profit-oriented or always not. There are or were (RIP Melt Festival) great ones of both types.

I wonder if the original organizers would have much say left if something becomes big enough and successful. It requires a very strong mindset to close something down. Makes me think about the batman movie debacle on some wanting to destroy Gotham city cause they think its beyond repair and then some other ones are hopeful to save it.

"…they're all suspectable (sic) to the same gentrification problem…"

That means they were on to something. Congratulations, success!

(Oh well.)

Same in Portland, OR. Cost of living is through the roof for one of the least diverse and culture-less metros of the well known metros in the US. Been around most of the 50 states and found way way more going on for less money.

It is swamped with boogie uninteresting characters. When I moved here almost 30 years ago now the locals boasted about having some of the lowest TV ownership rates in the country. Now I walk my dog and see glowing massive TVs in every house.

Bunch of lame college kids from Nowhereville community college Arkansas and Kentucky shirts everywhere; never see Oregon State or UofO anymore cause those grads know the local economy sucks and leverage their degree to get out.

All the local boogie ice cream shops with lines out the door? Venture capital businesses. Not truly local.

Multnomah county population been on the decline since covid lockdown ended. First time a years long depopulation trend has happened in Portland ever.

People outside of Portland find out I live here and trash it for turning into a gentrified snooze fest.

Can't wait to gtfo out of here once my kids are older

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