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Comment by blaze33 | Hacker News Reader

In 2011 I got a 143€ reimbursement from Dell for an E6420 laptop that I had bought for 910€.

Maybe I got lucky but I called the customer service, told the lady I did not agree with the Windows license terms, fully ready to argue my case and she just went "oh, ok, let me just edit a new invoice and wire you the money for Windows plus the Antivirus plus etc.".

Which was extra nice because I had no idea I was in fact charged for the bloatware, but I still got ~50€ for it on top of the OS license price.

This being 15 years ago it feels like a forever unsolved issue. My opinion remains the same, that a personal computer should not be tied to a specific OS. But now with smartphones the hardware/software (de)coupling situation seems even worse.

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I have a sneaking suspicion that Dell probably had standing orders to not bother to argue with someone who wanted a reimbursement for Windows, and just get it over with. If you care enough to want that, you care enough to argue your case and make life a hassle for everyone if Dell refuses. To even ask the question is a shibboleth that instantly marks you as someone on the edge of the bell curve.

I also have a similar suspicion that that order has been lost to time, partly because it's very rare that people do that (and Dell even offers Linux machines to those who do care), partly because the support's been outsourced to someone who hasn't read that part of the script, and partly because the world has become more hostile towards consumers during the past 15 years.

It's been very funny to go through life discovering such shibboleths exist in so many random places and its like getting a powerup to even find out about them...

Share!

A few months ago I bought a scam CPU along with a working computer.

The CPU is almost identical in performance to the one they were advertising —it was certainly malicious— but do I deserve $200 for something I didn't even care about in the first place?

There an argument to be made for harming the criminals even if you deserve it but it just doesn't vibe with my type.

If it's identical in performance, in what way is it a scam?

It had a slightly narrower cache.

Tbh I worked in customer service for a long time and almost always we would give a refund for whatever the customers asked except in rare cases.

And exactly like you said if the customer cares enough to reach out, just give them what they want. Best case they are super happy and recommend you and if you don’t comply they might go ballistic and do all kinds of stuff that will damage the business way beyond what the refund costs (very little)

It took some court cases to get there...

I am seriously saddened by the complete takeover of mobile computing by Apple and Google. There is no freedom on your own device to choose your own software, except inside the very narrow constraints allowed.

That's what de-facto monopolies do.

What is more surprising is that competitors do not arise. Democracies in general have totally messed this up. The USA should be fined for exerting a monopoly onto other countries. And then fined for penalising US customers with that monopoly at home.

"the US"? fined by whom?

By the king of England of course.

Other countries are free to find a way to incentivize building home-grown equivalents and prioritizing that software or even applying tarrifs to foreign software.

We were fine without it, we can still be fine without it.

Nothing is stopping you from buying an mp3 player, a small point and shoot, and running Linux on a 12 in ultra portable.

Why would I want 3 or more devices, when I want one device capable of it all and under my control?

Congratulations on missing the point entirely.

You don’t NEED a smartphone for daily life. It sure is convenient though!

And who are you to tell, me what I need?

Go and visit some places in the world were people struggle for the basic necessities of life and God himself will tell you.

Been there. And I don't feel the need to be in that situation, but life is more about survival.

You went from want to need. Maybe you should self inspect about want versus need.

Erm, I wrote "want" - you wrote "need" in the comment to reply. You seem to have it backwards.

And thank's for the advice, but I know how to live with little to survive and I know what I need to thrive and that ain't the same thing.

Yes, correct. I was talking about needing, and you are just affirming my point. Thanks for catching up.

If your daily life includes interacting with a bank then in many cases you absolutely do need a smartphone many banks no longer have websites that can be accessed with a web browser.

Change bank

You you also don't really NEED a roof about your head or a shower or a daily meal even or contact with any other human being. Not really as strong of an argument as you seem to think.

I'll gladly go without a smartphone if you go without ONE of those (your choice). We'll see who feels more strongly at the end of 60 days.

Lots of things are stopping me. Like needing a smartphone to read a menu at a restaurant, or replace a lost credit card.

Or passes to buses, trains, planes, concerts, sports arenas, and possibly soon government identification.

There was a recent story about some guy who had been buying season tickets for decades by paper ticket. The stadium shutdown the paper ticketing and left him without an option, except to purchase a smartphone.

Must be a Europe thing, as RealID pissed enough boomers off here in the States that I doubt anyone would push harder than that, and outside of very stupid ticket apps that occasionally won't let me print, I can't recall the last time a paper ticket and my drivers license didn't work. I also can just walk into a bank branch and raise a stink whenever I need something banking related, I guess all of this feels really contrived.

I think they're referring to LA Dodgers fan Errol Segal.

Also, plenty of businesses have very few physical offices.

> Like needing a smartphone to read a menu at a restaurant,

Every restaurant I’ve been to like this has a menu somewhere.

> or replace a lost credit card.

The phone numbers never stopped working. You just stopped calling

> The phone numbers never stopped working. You just stopped calling

The bank managed to not fix the problem the last 4 times my grandmother called them. Every single problem required an appointment to fix (I suspect they're not even allowed to do anything with any account over phone given how many times this has happened).

Yes, her bank is bad and I've told her to switch. But I wouldn't expect any other bank to actually have good customer service.

No offense but it sounds like your grandmother has a skill issue.

We can't all be good at everything.

Why should the customer of a bank need any skills? Surely the bank is the one that should have the skills.

I called Capital One to replace a card this month (either there's no online flow or it wasn't available to me). The default flow to verify my identity before they'd replace the card was to send a notification to the android app. My android version is too old. The alternative flow (which took them 20 minutes to figure out) was to send a text message with a link to an online ID verification service.

Is it COMPLETELY impossible that you could receive that link on a dumb phone, send it to a PC with a webcam, and then take a selfie photo and an ID photo? No. Is it likely to be an incredible hassle? Dear lord, yes. You can't upload photos, so you'd have to finagle with a webcame to get a shot of your ID on a surface followed by a selfie of yourself. Is it possible that in other similar situations, you'll be required to use an android app instead of a website? Yes, I've had that happen.

I think you are grossly underestimating the degree to which smartphones have become absolutely mandatory for many tasks.

The alternative alternative flow is to go to their branch.

I don't believe Capital One has physical branches, which isn't uncommon for credit card issues that aren't also banks.

Which is not a valid alternative for the card replacement use case as that's time sensitive and might happen when you are in an entirely different country where your bank doesn't even have any branches.

> Every restaurant I’ve been to like this has a menu somewhere.

And the best restaurants have staff and chefs that can deliver things that aren't even on a standard menu...

Actually, this reminds me of a time when I saw a person with communication difficulties order at a McDonald's counter. Without missing a beat, the staff member pulled out a large pictorial menu from beneath their counter for the person with a disability to point to. It seemed like a totally normal occurrence to them, but a very novel one to me as the next person in line.

> Every restaurant I’ve been to like this has a menu somewhere.

Yeah have fun being that guy for every restaurant visit.

There problem with relying on last-resort alternatives is that sooner rather than later you'll be in a situation where they have been optimized out and you are left with nothing.

Ask the restaurant staff for a menu. If they don't have one, go to a different restaurant.

And how would I make calls with it?

They still make dumb phones. And you can get a voip client on Linux.

For voip, I recommend jmp.chat and cheogram. I've been using it for years now.

Many so called dumb phones are just Android phones with buttons, real dumb low powered devices are being phased out because you don't get support for VoLTE Emergency

My Nokia 105 has 4G (as well as 3G and 2G) and is definitely not a smartphone and absolutely not an Android. It runs S30+.

What do you mean by:

> support for VoLTE Emergency

If it can't call 911 you're not allowed to sell it as a phone. Phone calls use VoLTE which is newish technology. Therefore it's illegal to sell older technology as a phone.

Why would I want to call 911? The number here is 999, or 110, 113, 113 in the rest of Europe. And of course I can call it.

Right, and if your phone can't support whatever the network uses for it, you're not allowed to sell it as a phone.

Even fake toy phones for kids need stickers that say there's no emergency service.

Allowed or not, if you bought your phone before the regulations were in place you'd still have no connection on some models, even 4G phones

> https://www.whistleout.com.au/MobilePhones/Guides/Check-if-p... "But it's not just 3G phones that won't work on Australian mobile networks; certain 4G phones won't work either if they don't support Voice over Long-Term Evolution (VoLTE) Emergency Calling."

> a small point and shoot,

Actually the Point and shoot market has largely dried up, even the 'fancier' point and shoots.

Apple did a very smart thing, using Sony BSI[0] and Stacked[1] Sensors in their phones.

As the 'Camera Snob' in the family my Brother recently asked me to help look for a small point and shoot for his wife for their child's events, and I was shocked at how few options there are compared to a decade ago (And how little most have improved since!)

To be clear, the 'ILC' (what many might think of when they think of when they say DSLR) market has continued to advance and the tech is better than ever, but the simple built-in lens point and shoot market has gotten very small outside of certain markets.

[0] - Back Side Illumination, basically a way to build the sensor that allows more light to hit it, but has some yield implications

[1] - Stacked sensors is again another sensor-build optimization, but it allows for faster readout of the full sensor with less rolling shutter, makes 'computational photography' feasible.

On MP3 players: I specifically got bone conducting headphones with on board storage so I could listen to music without carrying another device with me. Look for ones that are targeted towards swimming, they are the ones that tend to have on board storage.

On small point and shoots, I have a Sony ZV-1. It's marketed as a video camera, but I mostly use it for photography. It's great quality, and pocketable.

On compute, I don't really have a phone at all. I carry a Daylight Computer DC-1. Which as a device I recommend, but unfortunately the company backs anti-vax efforts which I found out about recently :\

What freedom do you need beyond replacing the OS, which is possible on all phones Google sells? If you want to replace the radio firmware, that isn't something that would be possible without that duopoly either.

The Pixel line is, from what I can see, a tiny part of the smart phone market share.

So, yes, I can buy a phone that I can mostly control (at the risk of losing access to some draconian apps). But most devices being sold don't allow consumer control.

consumer control begins by chosing what you give your money for.

Not having a constant remote root open for the mothership and whoever works there?

Doing crazy things like taking a backup of the phone which you paid full price for?

If you replace the OS, you don't have remote root open, and you can back up whatever you want.

Thankfully, Linux phones are becoming more and more viable as a daily-driver. We just need more folks to start using them.

> We just need more folks to start using them.

I would if I could. Which non-Android Linux phone can I buy here in Brazil? Importing from outside Brazil doesn't count unless it has ANATEL certification, customs rejects any non-certified phone.

If not for online banking I probably wouldn't even have a smartphone, however none of my banks supports anything other than recent androids. I feel stuck

then look for alternatives to banking itself! that impulse will shape the world even more.

Primarily, that would be cash.

pieces of paper is certainly better than bank database entries, but it's still fundamentally the same game: you need to work for something that they can print.

I wish it were that easy. But you get constantly flagged, questioned and banned from things if you don't play the traditional banking rules.

I am trying, that's why I know

You do not get banned from things for paying cash.

You cannot pay cash for MANY things I consider a requirement these days. Ex internet, health care, mobile access, ...

None of these in my country support crypto either. Well for mobile maybe.

I just need a phone which can call triple zero in Australia, I all not yet aware of any.

Fair point, but we still need people (like Linux enthusiasts) in Australia to buy these phones and complain to the manufacturer to add support for any missing features needed for 000, and work with the carriers to whitelist the devices. If no one buys these devices in the first place and no one complains about it, Linux phone makers would have little incentive to resolve the issue.

Maybe the Aussie Linux users could get together and work together with Linux Australia[1] to act as an intermediary and work something out.

[1] https://linux.org.au/

The crap part is a lot of niche phones got banned because you need to prove it can call triple zero not by default, so it'll be a real pain, and carriers don't really care.

I don't believe Linux Australia is the first port of call. Rather, conferences/meetups that are supported by Linux Australia would be the way to go. Basically, it needs to be very grassroots, and start with (capable) people who are genuinely interested in this and not distracted by other things that are a waste of attention. Any other strategy will likely be even more difficult and less likely to take fruition.

> Which was extra nice because I had no idea I was in fact charged for the bloatware, but I still got ~50€ for it on top of the OS license price.

I actually expected those to pay for being pre-installed, offsetting or possibly even exceeding the cost of the Windows license.

There's no way the typically included 30-day trial of an antivirus or Office costs 50€. It must've been a full yearly subscription of one or the other, that managed to sneak in right before checkout without being de-selected.

Apart from the OS I got reimbursed for 4 or 5 additional items between 6 to 15€ each as far as I can remember, I don't have the details as she only told me on the phone and have no record of it. The original invoice had the following list (although it seemed different from the itemized price list that customer service had access to):

  Camera : Software for Integrated Camera (Only for standard Base )
  Windows Live
  Optical Software : PowerDVD Software for Vista Home Premium and Ultimate, WIN7 Home Premium, Pro or Ultimate
  Software Driver : Latitude E6420 Diagnostics & Drivers 1 S
  Operating System : French Genuine Windows 7 SP1 Professional (64Bit OS) 1 S
  OS Media : MUI Windows 7 SP1 Professional (64Bit OS) Resource DVD 1 S
  Software : Microsoft Office Starter 2010 1 S
  Operating System Recovery Dell Backup and Recovery Manager for Windows 7 SP1 1 S
  AntiVirus : Trend Micro Worry Free Business Service (15 Month subscription)Software MUI

I sure as hell did not order extra antivirus or other kind of software but I guess it's possible there was some "Office and 15-month antivirus included" marketing offer that turned out to to neither be free nor optional...

While your mouse is over the "place order" button, after the left mouse button has moved through the first 0.2mm of its 1mm travel, but before the click is registered, the checkbox next to "1 year subscription to McAfee Anti-Virus" is automatically enabled, to better serve our customers.

I also heard the same thing, hence my surprise, but I guess I wouldn't rule out the possibility of a company simultaneously being paid for installing bloatware and also charging the customer for it...

> I had no idea I was in fact charged for the bloatware

It’s complicated. Those licenses have a dollar amount for accounting purposes.

Double Irish with a Dutch Sandwich. Those taxes don't avoid themselves.

So your personal computer was not tied to a specific OS and you were easily about to get a refund for the license cost of the OS that shipped in box. So what’s the issue? Do you want hardware to ship without any software?

Ideally. Normaly if you build a computer, there will not be any OS on a random SSD you buy for it. And it's fine. Do I have to build my own laptop to get this nice experience on a laptop?

> Normaly if you build a computer, there will not be any OS on a random SSD you buy for it.

That's why so many people go with pre-built and don't even care about wiping and reinstalling the OS to get rid of the bloat. They want a fully functioning product from the moment they power it on so having the OS is a big deal.

It's OK as an option, even as a default, Just give me a dropdown with "blank" as an option too.

Even without Microsoft's interference, it would still complicate logistics. Two OS options means double the number of SKUs. Some manufacturers offer this option but I wouldn't hold my breath that retailers want to bother.

Is it still different SKUs if it's easily convertible from one to the other?

Yes, Amazon and other retailers will have one laptop with OS, one laptop without. They need to track two different SKUs even if the conversion is easy. When upgradeable, SSD or RAM are also easily "convertible" but the SKU still needs to uniquely identify that "thing" that you have in stock or in the manufacturing pipeline.

That sounds like excuses. They could even make it pre-installed but require to enter a code on first boot to unlock the encrypted HDD if they really wanted a single hardware SKU but I doubt that it would be a real problem in the first place.

I would rather get full refound for laptop, if I disagree with the license. Windows is unseparatable from hardware after all...

Use laptop for a few months, than finally boot windows install...

The hardware is separable from the windows though.

Not always, Microsoft lingers like a fart in an elevator on some laptops. =3

https://techcommunity.microsoft.com/blog/windows-itpro-blog/...

Yes, always. The link you pasted doesn't prove otherwise. It just shows a luck of understanding UEFI

Some vendor firmware blocks external platform key enrollments. Contains 100% farts.

Have a great day =3

That might be true. And has nothing to do with your previous ridiculous claim. Your comment is further proof you lack even basic understanding of UEFI. But I sense the feeling that logic won't change your emotional position on the matter, so I'm not going to bother you further.

Someone probably buried your post for Sealioning, but in general even trying to install a clean windows 11 pro OS over a windows 11 Home embedded firmware license/hardware-signature on a gaming laptop is too complex for many users.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sealioning

Perhaps getting outside for a nice walk could lower stress levels a bit. =3

In that case, I suggest (not having tried it) that updating the OS and then resetting it might work better? Does Windows still have the reset option it had in win8?

The issue is the update license is different than full install licenses, and the red sticker oem licenses people scam are hardware specific.

You usually must pay for windows twice (or more if you don't know) to be Pro license compliant for commercial use.

Setting a machine up for multi-boot Linux/BSD is not always a simple process with every BIOS firmware, and configuring Windows to stop automatic encryption of NTFS volumes is nontrivial. Even with an offline install for games, if the OneDrive account is ever activated... files are upped to Microsoft cloud anyway.

Running an offline win11 account with a recent "rclone gui" NFS mounter for cloud APIs is a better option:

https://github.com/rclone/rclone

winget install Rclone.Rclone

Thankfully, disarming Win11 TPM/Drive-boobytrap/BS-encryption/Spam is easy with Rufus, O&O ShutUp10, and Copilot removal (note undocumented AI API areas suggested RAT/snitch-ware... the final straw with Microsoft BS around here...)

https://github.com/pbatard/rufus

https://www.oo-software.com/en/shutup10

https://github.com/zoicware/RemoveWindowsAI

Yes it still supports DRM Steam games, and Win11 x4 gen4 SSDs are now about 17% faster i/o on my rig.

You know what I like about Apple OS, is you just flip around 8 options and it goes quiet.

Best of luck, ymmv =3

  “Note: Affected third-party OS includes MacOS. However, it's outside the scope of Microsoft support. For Linux systems dual booting with Windows, Windows will update the certificates that Linux relies on.”

macOS users out of luck?

Some had to do a manual firmware/BIOS update. ymmv =3

Why bother making a throwaway account only to post a comment that is obviously and blatantly wrong?

https://meta.wikimedia.org/wiki/Cunningham's_Law

This makes almost no sense, so you would return the whole laptop due to Windows being on the machine once before ?

> Windows is unseparatable from hardware after all...

What are you talking about ? The TPM ? Not windows', they enforce once being there for W11 but it's not some trojan M$ code ?

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