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mittensc

> Claude told me that PayPal may still be universal way of sending a "gift amounts

Meanwhile in china you just scan a qr code.

In europe you just send money to their IBAN or they send you a link

Instant payments, no commission...

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Many countries including European now have just scan a QR code. The EU payment scheme Wero is bringing that cross-border for EUR. Instant and very low fees.

SEPA transfers are zero fees by law.

And instant (under 10 seconds)

Not by default. Deutsche Bank for instance makes you select it and I'm guessing most people are afraid that choosing instant means a fee so they leave it off.

Most banks did charge a fee at first, so this rollout is partly to blame for the option being available and the hesitancy.

There was another European payment system change to remove* the fees for real-time (official name) transfers, roughly a year ago. Together with the removal of international fees 10? years ago, it is indeed instant (if you check the box) and free across the EU now.

IIRC, real-time transfers commonly used to cost 50 cents (flat).

* Technically, they aren't allowed to cost more than regular transfers which cost 0 in ~all retail accounts

No, they are not.

Just checked, by EU law, banks cannot charge more for a SEPA euro transfer than they do for a local transfer within your own country.

... which boils down to 0 fees on any side for any transaction I've ever done, across quite a few countries in EU and to/from Switzerland. I don't think any sane retail bank dares to charge anything, people would migrate to competition in an instant.

Some business accounts charge a 20 to 50 cent flat fee. I think mine does. Retail basically never, yes.

Yes, this is pretty standard for business accounts.

there were some exceptions though, like in Greece, where banks charged for every sepa transaction. not sure if that's still the case.

I have an account in Denmark which charges for outgoing transactions, 3 DKK. (€0.40.)

I think I have the choice to pay a monthly fee, nominate it as my official account for receiving my salary, or pay for the transactions.

I choose the last option as it's a backup account, and I make perhaps 1 transaction per year.

I don't use Wero, yet, but I'm not really convinced when I read about it. Firstly, it lets anyone lookup the name associated with a phone number or email address, which is a privacy nightmare. Secondly, only a single bank account can be used with a phone number or email. This just seems badly designed.

> In europe you just send money to their IBAN or they send you a link

You can, but at least in Germany people are reluctant to give their IBAN to others and prefer one degree of separation, so PayPal is still very common for transfers between friends.

> in Germany people are reluctant to give their IBAN to others

Are they worried people might send them money without their permission?

An IBAN can be used to take money via SEPA direct debit.

Which is the problem. Why does something like this even exist?

Because it's a convenient lower tech solution where you don't need to be a merchant with access to the debit card system to get monthly (or one-off) money, and it's easy to take or give back money. As other comments say, it's also trivial to claim back a fraudulent charge, it's exposed directly in every online bank system UI.

In Switzerland the concept of a "Einzugsermächtigung" exists too, but it's a step or two more than just knowing your IBAN.

Basically you do this with your bank and not the other way around with the merchant.

Is it common to check all your banking stuff every month to make sure there is nothing fraudulent? I don't see how this is practical

I get notified of all SEPA direct debit requests and need to approve them, only for recurring payments.

Perhaps other banks don't do this and that is the problem.

My wife recently filled out a SEPA-Lastschriftmandat for an account in my name and all she needed was my name, IBAN address and a signature. Name and Address is semi-public and signatures can be faked. I'm no financial criminal but I would be shocked if there was no attack vector that gets enabled from knowing an IBAN and a name.

The thing is, burden of proof is with the bank. For a lastschrift, you have 8 weeks to reverse it, if you didn't actually sign the Ermächtigung, you have 13 months.

Unless you don't care what transfers happen, that's pretty much always enough time

I am not worried about the money staying gone forever and I have ample cash reserves, but I can imagine that someone who might have to worry about a bouncing rent wire or electricity bill would be more worried about their safety cushion potentially being gone until they get it fixed with their bank.

I had a situation where my mortgage took money from my account, but used the wrong company/reference name.

I didn't know what it was so I clicked a few buttons in the app and the money was back instantly.

That was on Commerzbank. Dunno if others are the same!

The issue is more "I checked my account yesterday, I have 600€ on there, so I know the 150€ utilities bill due today is not an issue" and then a weird withdrawal happens and all of a sudden the utilities payment bounces. Even if i get the money back instantly once I notice it theres still the issue that now I have to deal with a bounced payment to a utilities provider.

But no company cares about an occasional failed payment? That's part of doing business?

So they send a polite email informing you of it and you pay it a few days late?

No reasonable entity would charge late fees as that's a great way to anger otherwise perfect customers?

But again, I am not talking about myself, im talking about the hyptothetical person who might not be the perfect customer. My in-laws have had their gas cut more than once because of non-payments, or were only allowed to keep the gas running because they told them "we will wire you the last 3 unpaid invoices at once on day x".

For me to personally end up in this situation the bank would need to somehow SEPA out like 2 years worth of mortgages at once in a short timeframe, which is not a realistic scenario.

If you have an app, you'll notice immediately that a payment bounced, via notification. If not, you'll get a letter informing you that it bounced.

Also: it takes A LOT of letters and court orders for them to cut your utilities. I'm not joking, it's more than a couple of Mahnungs, then it goes to debt collection, then it goes to court. The court will then take the money out of your account.

That's all before power gets cut.

It definitely won't be because of a single missed payment.

Even in the situation above: if your in-laws somehow had no balance "at once on day x" because of a fake SEPA, they would be able to reverse via app, or go to the bank and reverse.

Justified fear. A former flat mate of mine reported an unexpected outgoing transfer to his UK bank and they blocked his account for 3 months. He was essentially unbanked. He had to pay his rent in cash after getting it from an ATM with a credit card (which cost a lot extra and hit limits). Resolving it took months even though we lived right next to a branch of that bank, where he went every day.

In Germany you'd be afraid to reverse lastschrift because if by some accident it's legit, the companies like service providers will go berserk at you.

It takes ~2 weeks to resolve and will cost you tens of Euros. The biggest threat is that they won't want to deal with you anymore, at least for a while. Happened to a flatmate of mine 15ish years ago.

I'm certain that it also involves receiving and sending a letter.

Pray its not a fax.

Letters are why it takes so long, yes

I wouldn’t be afraid, but I also wouldn’t reverse a legit one. When you do that, you get sent to collections, which makes sense.

Paypal (as an example) only asks for the name and IBAN and they do identity verification themselves, by depositing (!) a small amount of money on your account.

But yeah, it's a very high-trust society. Of course any charge can be reverted via your bank app in seconds. But it's still a nuisance to have to check, so people are wary of giving it away.

It's not high trust society. In Germany service providers have easy and instant access to your bank account. Like TSA to your body on American airports. They absolutely don't trust that someone will voluntarily make monthly bank transfer, so I'd call it zero-trust system.

In USA a company that knows your bank account number can withdraw money from it.

They're financially incentivized to behave, but that's it. The ability is there.

It depends.

Telecoms, kinda. They will try to force this on you via contract. You can say no, but they will lie to your face that it's impossible. You can always get a pre-paid, too. I witnessed the same situation (forced by contract) in some Gyms as well.

Vatenfall and other electric companies, the government itself, banks, landlords, Hausverwaltung, all are surprisingly chill about which payment method you use.

But then again, Telecoms and Gyms are always trying to cheat and steal from you in every country that I lived, that I'd call this the exception to the rule.

The IBAN is also used for paying online by debit note. So somebody who knows your IBAN can theoretically buy stuff using your bank account. You can easily reclaim that money, but still there is hassle involved.

> The IBAN is also used for paying online by debit note

How does that even work?

You open an account somewhere and when you pay they sneak in consent for direct debit with some dark pattern.

there are notifications and approvals in bank apps now, they can't take the money until you accept there too and you can revoke from there as well

i don't want their mobile app

do it on the website then?

or dont do anything and direct debit by default doesnt work

In the early days of eBay I exchanged money exclusively via bank transfer and had no worries, but for me the Internet has changed and these days I use PayPal to send and receive money from strangers. I see it like this: My email address is already public, so I'm not risking anything when I share it with strangers. My IBAN on the other hand is only known to a few respectable companies, so why change that? Seeing all the online platforms store all your PII without hesitation, but keeping your IBAN only as ****** and handing it straight to a trusted payment processor always reminds me that it's not like the others. Yes, I know businesses put their IBAN on their letter head, but they also have accountants watching their transactions.

In some MAJOR banks (not gonna say which one), the last digits of the IBAN are also used as username.

So basically people outside can lock your online account.

I am shocked by how F** dumb this was ever designed.

a user name should not be something that needs to be kept secret. If that is the case, the bank fucked up in my eyes...

Yes, because you can also debit money from IBAN :) Without consent of owner. Not sure how this works.

If you have the right authorisation on a business account you can "direct debit" from any account. It let's you charge a bank account in a similar way as a US creditcard can be charged by number and expiry date. Technically the contract with your bank says you need to have a signed authorisation from the account owner to charge their account, but you don't have to show it to the bank before charging.

The money you get that way isn't guaranteed, the account owner could do a charge back. And if that happens you have to show the signed authorisation from the account owner. If you don't have it, expect your bank to terminate the direct debit ability.

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