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Comment by mahrain | Hacker News Reader

This was done for mostly ideological reasons, "green transition" and such. The Dutch economy was dependent on natural gas sales for funding parts of the welfare state. They became a net importer of natural gas and then Ukraine and Iran made the gas prices spike. So the Dutch government is now struggling to fill the natural gas store for household heating and cooking applications for the coming winter season, while also incurring these high costs. The impact hasn't fully played out or understood.

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The same has happened in the UK. It has gone from being a major producer of oil and gas to being heavily dependent on imports.

Great for politicians on the global speaking circuit to opine how they reduced production and brought down local carbon emissions whilst completely ignoring that offshoring industry means the emissions just happen somewhere else (typically a poorer country with lower/no environmental standards).

Hardly seems to fit with the “we’re all in this together” argument.

Right wing selling off national assets on the cheap: good Left wing blocking off national assets: bad

> Hardly seems to fit with the “we’re all in this together” argument.

It's a good job we offset all of our manufacturing to the likes of China, it's not like they have terrible environmental standards or share an atmosphere with us or anything. It's also a good job we closed our coking coal rich mines to import it from Japan instead [1].

I'm left in utter disbelief that any of this was allowed or condoned, it is nothing short of madness. The UK now finds itself in a position where it is incapable of doing absolutely anything.

[1] https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/articles/cp311nr7w34o

Well, it's not like the idea of the UK being a "major producer of oil and gas" is a feasible long-term strategy anyway.

> It has gone from being a major producer of oil and gas to being heavily dependent on imports.

You seem to be suggesting this happened for reasons other than extracting and selling all the oil and gas that was there, while also stalling on any domestic moves to burn less fuel, leading to the obvious imbalance.

Even the oil industry when they show graphs of what they describe as "unrealistic" options which involve massive cuts in taxation are only tiny speed bumps on the way to exhausting the reserves.

Meanwhile a single round of wind turbine auctions will save far more gas than that. And be a "green transition".

> It has gone from being a major producer of oil and gas

Given that North sea oil is a finite resource that has already peaked, it cannot form the basis of a long term energy strategy.

The impact for me is double gas prices compared to a couple of years ago. About 300€ a month, year round.

But be fair with us: are you holding back on investing in other forms of heating due to non-financial reasons? (I am. We use a bit less gas than you, but I am looking for another house and unwilling to transition even though I can afford it and it seems profitable.)

Currently I can't afford it tbh (it's like a couple of 1000 and only makes sense with solar panels?), but that may change soon. Still I wonder if it is cheaper? Electricity in winter is still very expensive and soon generated solar power is near worthless and we can't store it for the winter.

I admit I still have to do the exact math (for which I am in a good position with years worth of Home Assistant data).

If I had money to spare I'd be more idealistic about it really, also because I have a solar-panels + home battery shaped hole in my HA dashboard that hurts me ;)

While everyone knows that welfare state should be dependent on taxing the absurdly rich instead of on gas sales.

Until the "absurdly rich" (read: this starts barely above middle class) start going away

I always knew Europe had high taxes, but when I lived in Ireland I was shocked that the top tax rate kicks in at the princely sum of €44,000 a year.

No. The government should just use tax to create investment funds. Then make it a law that only 50% of profit can be used, the rest needs to be reinvested.

It’s moronic that taxes don’t always go down. The government should make money and get a job instead of living off welfare.

For some reason people get mad about the state owning productive assets.

I think it was a Russian (or American?) psy op. Europe would be almost self-sufficient with the Dutch and Norwegian fields so they had to be shutdown. All while the storage is at historical lows

https://ned.nl/nl/gasopslagen-nederland#:~:text=Verloop%20va...

European self-sufficieny in oil products peaked in the 1990s around 65%

Never high enough for self sufficiency without major changes that the people close to the money spigot delayed for decades to line their own pockets.

Another resource curse.

Ok not 100% self-sufficient. But Norway is producing 3x as much gas now as in the 90s. Gas use to be a waste product almost

Can you please replace Ukraine with Russia?

> Ukraine and Iran made the gas prices spike

Replace Ukraine with Russia and Iran with USA

This is just not true. The gas wells caused (and still cause) earthquakes in the Groningen province, peoples homes got damaged, this became political, now gas from Groningen is being phased out.

My opinion is that this is stupid, we have billions of euros of gas in the ground and the house damage is overblown.

This was done for mostly ideological reasons, "green transition" and such.

The area is sinking. Literally:

"The pressure decline in the field causes compaction in the reservoir which is observed as subsidence at the surface."

https://piahs.copernicus.org/articles/372/367/2015/piahs-372...

How is the green transition ideological?

Because it sure as heck isn't pracrical.

Renewable energy: yes, please. Forcing it and tanking the economy, creating poverty: absolutely not.

https://i.imgur.com/ENQjfdo.jpeg

Pretty hard to have a strong economy when half the randstad is under water. Not to mention crop failures, war, etc.

I agree with the ideological part of it. But the Dutch economy or governement was perhaps “dependant” on the revenues in the 80s (peak at >15% of gov exp), but in recent years it was more like 1%. The strategic concern is not primarily a financial concern.

I generally don’t believe in conspiracies, but not filling the strategic reserves for next winter (each year after the energy shock of a few years ago, they fill the gas storage less) looks like a way to scare the populace into making the electric transition via a government made supply shock.

Nah filling is just dependent on private companies and they aren’t willing to pay the high prices now.

The government is now going to fill it themselves to levels required for the harshest winter in 30 years. And tax the population to fill it to this completely unnecessary level.

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