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Comment by jamisteven | Hacker News Reader

LMFAO, have you ever been to a restaurant in Europe? The service is horrific. Sit down and wait 15 minutes for the menus, another 15 to place a drink order, another 10 for the drinks to get there, another 10 to place food order. Now you finish the meal, good luck getting the waiters attention to bring the check. European dining is the worst, every time I am back stateside I feel like im being waited on in the white house or something fancy.

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I could say the same about US restaurants. I want to socialise with the people I'm sharing the meal with, not some random waiter. The servers are constantly interrupting, ruining the mood and you feel unwelcome like they want to get you out the door the moment your plate is empty (because that's exactly what they want). It's like being on a conveyor belt.

The waiter comes by about twice in a visit, asks you "Is there anything you need?". You say "No thanks". And you get upset by that. And then you complain about Americans and their terrible ways. What sense does that make? Can't you see how rude you are? The person simply came by to check, since that person is your waiter and the goal is that you have a tasty and pleasant time.

While I very much agree with your sentiment and to be honest I prefer dining in the USA, it’s naive to think (in most cases) that they actually care about anything other than getting you out of the restaurant as soon as possible to work a new party.

Of course, there’s a bit of future optimization where they want you as a repeat customer, but that manifests in pretending they don’t want you out, not actually feeling that way. It makes sense - a rational revenue maximizing business does want you out but they need to pretend they don’t. The veneer is thin in many cases (though it varies by establishment). Personally, I’d prefer the incentives aligned with being a bit more straightforward, down to earth and without fake flattery.

I remember I had a meal once as a group of 5 about 10 years ago at a beachfront restaurant in Boca. At this group size a tip of 18% was added by default. Our waiter had been so cloying and over the top, calling us friends, etc. When the bill came and I didn’t tip anything other than 18% the waiter started shouting from across the room and made physical contact with me because he thought I hadn’t tipped. It was really a horrible experience, but very telling.

If I need anything, I will call for the waiter. I do find it intrusive and patronizing if they come and check if I need anything. I'm not "upset" about it, but it does make my dining experience worse. It also gives me the impression they are trying to get me to free up the table as soon as possible.

It is very amusing to me that in a different part of this thread people are complaining that the waiter doesn't come by enough, and here the complaint is the opposite.

The critical difference for me is if they ask while you're eating, perhaps 5 minutes after serving your table, that's OK it means they are genuinely interested in improving your experience and it's an opportunity to correct minor problems.

If they ask after you've eaten, that would be rude, from my British perspective.

The after-meal ask is to see if 1) you want dessert or 2) you want your soft drink refilled or to purchase an additional alcoholic beverage. Honestly, I think the "waiters keep pestering me" perception from Europeans is heavily influenced by the refill checks, which by-and-large aren't a thing in Europe.

> The waiter comes by about twice in a visit

That's at least once too often.

Once early in the meal, and once to clear dishes and check for any after-meal orders is fine. But the several interruptions between those two is too much. I'm certainly engaged in conversation, and they're just interrupting it for no good reason.

I've been in hundreds of not fancy restaurants across Europe in my life, in many countries. The service speed in like 95% of all cases is at maximum or vary close to it. It's between 0 to 1-2 minutes to get menu, then 0 to 1-2 minute to flag a waiter and order, and that all delays possibly induced by the serving staff. The rest is just how long it takes to cook and is not relevant here. So maybe USA shaves off a few tens of seconds of that, and pays for that with tens of dollars per visit plus suffers an annoying questions all the time, while I'm eating. No thanks.

Maybe you guys like your USA service model. Maybe Europeans are mistaken about USA service model. But one thing is certain - you USA guys have zero idea about speed of service on average in European cafes and restaurants, judging by your comments :) .

It’s possible that many of the Americans commenting here have gone to very different restaurants than locals have in mind, and are basing their experiences on a very different sample. Like touristy places with a patio on the main old town square of (insert European city here)

The dining experiences I’ve had in London vs Barcelona are very different, and both of them are represented in these comments as “European”.

I didn't think of that, probably because when I'm in another country I do my very best to avoid touristy places. I want to experience the country, not the show it puts on for visitors.

Knowing to flag down a waiter is probably a big part of the equation. In the US waiters will generally come on their own to take your order fairly quickly and so we’re less used to flagging them down. And in a lot of places in Europe waiters won’t ask to bring the check, it’s on you to ask for it.

> European dining is the worst

Europe has 40+ countries with what, a million, restaurants… let’s conflate them all! Horrible! The whole continent! 1 star (and not a Michelin one)!

To be fair US states are like that, too.

with far less cultural differences.

Yes, the dining experience in California and New York is just so, so different. One waiter might call it pop, the other soda, it's like being on a different planet!

It's wild the extents to which Americans overestimate the cultural differences between their states and literal entire countries with actual differences. Scandinavia and the Mediterranean are quite different, Americans speaking in a different accent and maybe being slightly friendlier or not is nothing.

This is literally what the grandparent comment was doing.

> In the typical USA system...

> European restaurants typically...

But the interesting thing is that no one ever complains when people group things by continents like that if the theme is bashing the US and praising Europe. Only when talking bad about Europe it's suddenly an issue.

It wasn’t about Europe but about the conflation.

I live in half Europe for the past 15 years and have been to more restaurants than I can count. Typical service is courteous and efficient. Of course there are outliers, too.

Repeat business is rewarded like in most places. I frequent many cafes and restaurants where I'm recognized and treated like family even though I have never once tipped there.

Not sure which destinations you're eating in, but as someone who lives in "Europe", that's not been a regular occurrence at all. Generally, the waiting times are not so long and service is reasonable. There are of course experiences at both end of the spectrum. I've walked out of a Vienna cafe once because I waited 20 minutes for someone to bring the bill. Three steps out the door the waiter chased me down and I paid the bill. Problem solved. However, I've also been in situations where I us want the wait-staff to bugger off and let me enjoy my meal and conversation in peace. Usually, the service is somewhere in between.

In the Netherlands this has been my experience many times. By the time they finally come to take your order (which is always "what would you like to drink?", requiring me to say "actually I'm ready to order the food as well") - I would have already been eating in many other countries.

The reason I think is a mix of things: firstly people really want to make a night of it, seeing the whole dinner as an experience, and secondly the amount of staff (both waitstaff and in the kitchen) won't support a faster process.

Edit: it's not a case of better or worse, just different expectations going in

Ah much generalisation. Europe is over 40 countries with vast differences in quality of service and restaurant culture. I have been to restaurants in many European countries and the only generalisation I can make is that tip culture does not exist in Europe.

My last trip I gave a $10 tip to a waiter in a Spanish restaurant. I apologized that I didn't have euros. The guy smiled broadly and thanked me. If tip "culture" didn't exist in Europe, he would have thought of me as inappropriate and would have given the money back. Like if you try to give a tip to a firefighter, he'd give it back, because it's not appropriate.

Of course you can tip and nobody would refuse one. The difference is tipping is not expected by default and you get same service regardless of your tip. In contrast many years ago a waiter in a NYC restaurant made my then girlfriend crying when the waiter decided that the tip was not big enough. Is this great American service people here keep raving about?

Do you think that experience is representative of all dining experiences in the US or did you cherry pick one?

> a waiter in a NYC restaurant made my then girlfriend crying when the waiter decided that the tip was not big enough

That's certainly not the norm in the US. I've eaten in restaurants in every state and have never seen or experienced anything like that. It sounds like you just got a terrible server or restaurant.

I have not been in a place in Europe where the tips would be rejected. However, universally they are not the norm or expected.

Also about the $10 - they would need to gather quite a few more dollar notes and spend time finding a cash exchange bureau. Else the note is just a memento of a weird American.

In some EU countries the tips have to be counted as salary and income (+social) tax paid, or even they have to be declared as revenue to the restaurant along with the VAT (19-25%) going straight to the state. Of course, when paid in cash - that rarely happens. The point is that the provision exists in the law (so the tips are not unheard of)

Define "the norm", because it's absolutely a thing, just not required and or demanded like it is in the USA.

He accepted it because he saw you as an American cash cow.

Obviously you will do as you please, but I wish tourists would try to get with the culture. As a European, one of many reasons I don't tip is that I don't want to encourage a class system where anyone who doesn't pay up is seen (and sees themselves) as stingy.

Although in the UK, there is often an "optional" service charge tacked on for table service dining. (Yes, you can get it taken off but I'm guessing most people don't.)

One (more) area where Britain stands apart from the mainland.

In general, the Anglosphere differs in quite a few ways (though not consistently) from everywhere else.

Have you tried eating out while not in a rush?

> Have you tried eating out while not in a rush?

Sorry, I prefer to eat while rushed.

That’s how the median American household income is US$7,600/month. Half of all households make more than this.

Are you sure that’s not at least in part due to the US being the global currency and business hub, importing a good portion of other places’ wealth?

Although, yes, at times unhealthy amounts of productivity probably also play a role, true that.

People over the Atlantic just have a better concept of social gathering as opposed to neediness of being served and staffed with food.

People come to a place to have fun and talk for a few hours or their free time. Drinks and food coming and going is just a small nuance. 10 minutes (often way less of course) for drinks to arrive is mostly okay. Nobody is busy waiting for them.

Different concept, not objectively better.

In America, waiting for staff to serve you is considered time lost. In Europe it's called European culture.

But you are not waiting. You are talking to your friends or family.

I disagree and many trivial numbers are telling the story here, but I'm not going to argue.

Nor should you argue a subjective point as though it’s objective. But if you’re passionate about the subject you should write a blog post or something.

From the restaurant owner's perspective there is no benefit of slow or bad service. That means guests are taking up room without spending money. It makes much better sense to be speedy in giving your guests attention and service, as this gives you more sales, more margin for error, and most importantly much happier guests. They can still focus on the socializing and being merry.

Nobody is talking about bad or slow service.

It's just there is a difference between "slow service" and, you know, taking needed time.

Sure, some times it can be slow, at any place or country. But the thing described in the parent comment is just either a hyperbolization (my bet) or some unfortunate coincidence.

There are plenty of comments about bad and slow service here, and who of us haven't experienced that many times in real life? In all kinds of places.

It seems your expectations are very mismatched. Most restaurants operate because people go there occasionally and relax and socialize.

If you just want a quick meal there's more than enough places but you generally order at the counter there, don't sit and wait for a server.

Since COVID many restaurants (in Spain at least) no longer offer you a menu, you can view it via a QR code that there's on every table.

Also, those times depend on the place and location. The ones I've been lately were pretty fast

People are used to that concept enough that changing a small item on the menu doesn't require a whole re-print, or sitting for an hour with a bottle of Tip-Ex

If you're upset that you wait then maybe something like McDonald's would be better for you. When you go out to eat, you're also going out to socialize and enjoy your time.

It happens, but rarely this bad, as they would lose customers.

Some extremely touristic areas can get away with anything.

> European dining is the worst, every time I am back stateside I feel like im being waited on in the white house or something fancy.

Part of European dining is the social aspect, that gets ruined when you're constantly being asked if you want another drink.

So you say "I'm good or maybe in a bit." Was that hard? (Versus trying to chase someone down to get your beer refilled.)

And if you say you're good, you'll get the check (assuming end of meal). If you don't pay it, they'll come back and ask you if you want something else. If you say no, they'll give you a few minutes and come back. They want you to get the fuck out of there as quickly as posible.

In the average place in most European countries (excluding places with a queue outside or highly sought after reservation only places), nobody would bat an eye if you stay talking an hour after you're done.

Ironically as a Brit on the continuant, that was one that annoyed me.

Trying to pay for what I used, in order to leave and do some things was a pain...

> In the average place in most European countries (excluding places with a queue outside or highly sought after reservation only places), nobody would bat an eye if you stay talking an hour after you're done.

That's because most European restaurants operate on a single sitting model when it comes to financial planning. Someone coming in later in the evening to fill an already vacated table is a nice and welcome extra income for the restaurant, but that not happening will not cause a financial loss either.

> Part of European dining is the social aspect

So like every culture in the world then?

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