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Comment by jeffnv | Hacker News Reader

Noticing that the waist circumference on average went down on the peppermint group (85.17 -> 84.61) while the placebo group it went up (88.33 -> 88.65)? Also the resting heart rate dropped for the peppermint group. My initial suspicion is that the peppermint group coincidentally was also the 'got in better shape' group. Maybe the peppermint helped, but for relatively small groups that also seem to be improving waist circumference and heart rates likely due to good diet and exercise, I'm not convinced the peppermint did jack shit. More investigation needed! Would be awesome if it helped though!

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There has been some research on spearmint suggesting anti-androgen effects in PCOS, which is a bit unexpected to me as I wouldn't expect mint-family herbs to have much hormone modulating effect at all. I would imagine there to be similarities in profile between spearmint and peppermint so perhaps a related mechanism is involved, although I would probably expect the opposite outcome as a naive layperson. But I haven't closely evaluated the paper nor do I know whether there's been much else suggesting this

It is important to remember that herbs are difficult to study in this setting compared with isolated compounds -- likely because their pharmacological and chemical compositions are sensitive to many factors: hour and season of harvest, form consumed (raw powder, alcohol extract, cold water infusion, fat emulsion, hot water infusion, combustion, pyrolysis, essential oil), part consumed (leaf, root, flower, seed), among staggeringly many others. Anyone with experience consuming cannabis or coffee can probably testify to the above

Not to mention that the pharmacologically active compounds in many plants are far from being comprehensively understood, let alone their interactions and dynamics

This isn't to say that every claim about herbs is to be taken seriously. My point here is more that there is no good reason to dismiss the herb itself as a cause yet simply because it's an herb and a fairly mundane one at that. There are easy examples of herbs which have pronounced physiological effects, used for recreation, performance enhancement, as literal poison, to induce labor, to thin the blood -- among others.

https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/19585478/

>I wouldn't expect mint-family herbs to have much hormone modulating effect at all

Mints are closely related to pennyroyal (Mentha pulegium), which was traditionally (and dangerously because of toxicity) used as an abortifacient. Its mechanism of action is still unknown, so hormone modulating effects seem plausible to me.

Sit and drink pennyroyal tea, I’m anemic royalty.

Also used as lactation reducing herb.

By "mints" I meant the family lamiaceae, so pretty broadly which contains sages, rosemaries, basils, teak, verbena, and in hindsight of course contains examples like this which straddle medicine (depending on dosage and circumstances -- I'm not advocating it be used as such) and poison. Even if just restricting to the genus mentha apparently. Anyway good call

So spearmint is not peppermint. Peppermint (mentha pipereta in this study) inhibits CYP3A4 and CYP1A2. CYP1A2 is in the liver and if that is inhibited then estrogen will route down the CYP1B1 path so the ratio of the two metabolites 2-OHE1 v.s 4-OHE1 would be altered. For the PCOS (renamed to PMOS btw) if they start with elevated 2-OHE1 after the peppermint this could result in improve estrogen signaling because the now raised 4-OHE1 has much higher affinity than the 2-OHE1 for ESR1 (Era). ESR1 in particular is known for lowering blood pressure.

This particular path isn't that crazy, but it would only be for a subset of folk. From the study there is something simpler: menthol acts as a natural calcium-channel blocker, triggering vasodilation to reduce blood pressure.

Fuck.

This is what I sound like when I talk about analogue electronics, isn't it?

Thing is I know I could look all those terms up and learn enough to be dangerous in a subject you're clearly very good at.

Menthol is wild.

Lightly edited from Wikipedia:

"Menthol's [agonism of] the cold-sensitive Transient Receptor Potential cation channel subfamily M (melastatin) member 8 or TRPM8 receptors is responsible for the well-known cooling sensation it provokes.

Menthol's analgesic properties are mediated through a selective activation of κ-opioid receptors. Menthol blocks calcium channels and voltage-sensitive sodium channels, reducing neural activity that may stimulate muscles.

Some studies show that menthol acts as a GABAᴀ receptor positive allosteric modulator and increases GABAergic transmission in PAG neurons."

…and! Check this out:

"Menthol has anesthetic properties similar to though less potent than propofol, interacting with the same sites on the GABAᴀ receptor."

Propofol. PROPOFOL. The -ol in propofol is the -ol in menthol, haha.

"Menthol may also enhance the activity of glycine receptors and negatively modulate 5-HT3 receptors and nAChRs."

Aaaaand:

"Menthol also lowers blood pressure and antagonizes vasoconstriction through TRPM8 activation."

many things are wild, just menthol has been studied for the past 50yrs

Well said!!

My point was exactly the hope to indicate how much knowledge there exists. That's the truly wild thing. Or yeah, how unread most of it lays.

Peppermint is even more wild becasue while Menthol is a TRPM8 agonist (cold sensation), ECGC, also very high in peppermint, is a TRPV1 agonist (warm sensation), which has the opposite effect of TRPM8.

The EGCG is probably what is reducing the blood pressure.

Transient receptor potential vanilloid type 1 is vital for (−)-epigallocatechin-3-gallate mediated activation of endothelial nitric oxide synthase

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/10.1002/mnfr.201400699

Cardioprotective and Anti-Hypertensive Effects of Epigallocatechin Gallate: Novel Insights Into Biological Evidence

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jch.70036

Anything with EGCG in it causes me extreme bladder pain, even peppermint tea. While taking tons of Ricola cough drops (high in mentol) once when I had covid I found my bladder pain vanished. I then learned how the TRPV1 receptor is involved in my bladder pain.

https://www.nature.com/articles/s41598-018-24056-0

Exploding-head emoji reaction here, both generally and specifically. Thank you.

There is something to aromatherapy. Essential oils are full of molecules that look like drugs and bind to GPCR receptors in the nose that head to the brain and have all sorts of effects, even if these molecules don't transport well in the body or cross the blood-brain barrier.

Peppermint as a scent is usually thought of as stimulating, raising heart rate and blood pressure. The lore, with some research supporting it, is that other oils that are more sedating can bring down blood pressure if you use them, say, in a diffuser.

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC3521421/

I find the sensuality of Ylang Ylang to be distracting so I mixed in Lavender and got this wonderful floral smell that filled my office but an hour later I notice the sedation and I am nodding off and can't concentrate on work at all. It was like the scene in the Wizard of Oz where the Wicked Witch of the West put (most of) the protagonists to sleep with a field of scarlet poppies.

I thought I wrote this are first! This is how I think through things as well with Nutritional Genomics. However, the pathway is probably not the cause for the lower blood pressure. The tea is very high in Epicatechin gallate which is most likely reason for the lower blood pressure.

http://phenol-explorer.eu/contents/food/869

https://onlinelibrary.wiley.com/doi/full/10.1111/jch.70036

https://academic.oup.com/chemse/article-abstract/40/1/27/290...

I'm familiar with drug interaction monographs and enjoy reading them. And I am somewhat comfortable with the organ/body functional pathways (I think that's what it's called) -- where can someone view/look at different pathways of the body as a resource?

Peppermint is now familiar to most people as the ubiquitous taste of toothpaste, even moreso than candy, food, or drink.

If we cue university student volunteers on Toothpaste -> Selfcare -> Weightloss I wonder what happens.

I also wonder what placebo was used, and to what effect. The typical flavoring agent to make something peppermint-flavored is peppermint essential oil (or cornmint, spearmint, etc), and I don't know how you'd make it convincing without also including a bunch of hypothetically active compounds. The paper lists Schweppes Peppermint Cordial, without mint on the ingredients label. "Peppermint cordial" used as flavoring was historically 10% peppermint oil, and today the Schweppes product they cite just lists "flavourings" as ingredient.

Alcoholic beverages are not required to list their flavoring ingredients, so "without mint on the ingredients label" says literally nothing.

Because the FDA regulates beverages separately from food (or at least alcoholic ones - not sure where the dividing line lies), you can sell booze flavored with things that you cannot put in snacks.

Lead and live tapeworm eggs are still out, though - for now.

But weight/mass didn't change one bit (okay exaggeration, but not by much), so maybe peppermint helps relieve gas. Who knows? There's a lot that this data could mean, and no simple way to figure it out.

i actually had heard it helps w/ bloating/stomach issues online and took for a while and def noticed a debloating effect and less gas... obviously 1 anecdote, but I'd assume any slight waistline reduction is due to that. Also sidenote: pooping often made it feel like I put a breathmint... up... "there" lol

Funniest thing today so far.

Not surprising, it’s what happens to capsaicin too. Something has to happen to the molecules/compounds you consume. Either your body discards them, stores them, or transforms them.

The fascinating part is that your anal tissue has that level of sensitivity and insight.

Unlike the anuses in government etc.

In my culture, that's the goto herbal drink for when you have a stomach ache due to indigestion or gas by the way. I don't know how or why they work but some of these things do work. The footnote here is that it is for pain/discomfort that would also go away by itself if untreated. It just speeds up the process and provides some comfort. For different kinds of pain/discomfort, a doctor needs to be consulted of course.

Mint stimulates release of bile, which can help digestion, especially of fats. I have gallstones and unfortunately recently learned first hand how powerful the effect is after eating a couple of leaves (two kinds, but I forget which) from a neighbor's garden.

I thought on similar lines. Because I use it often for ibs i noticeably feel much better and I suspect the bp and heart rate reduction could be due to reduced gi effect on body

It's actually prescribed for that: https://www.nhs.uk/medicines/peppermint-oil/

It's a mild laxative on top of that.

I think they've pooped out the difference.

Peppermint oil has traditionally been used in India for digestion, so you may be on to something. I remember this particular brand growing up: https://www.amazon.com/clp/B001NQ7S9G (no relation).

I don’t think that’s peppermint. That’s pudina so spearmint. Mentha spicata.

Nothing but blood pressure and heart rate was significant, and heart rate only barely so. I wouldn't read anything into the other numbers. It was a 20 day study, you aren't going to get long term outcomes from that.

Peppermint oil is a known laxative, so I wonder if that made a difference

Yes, and looking at dietary data, the study says that there is no difference in their diets, but carbohydrate intake drop from 217g to 171g. I don’t see how that’s insignificant.

I'd think weight could be causal for hypertension result or sentiment over health measurement could have been causal for weight or the study could just be too small.

When you say weight, do you really mean obesity? And if you are talking about weight, is it likely that people who live in low gravity environments will have fewer hypertension problems?

On the topic of mass, I am certain your pedantic comment will be mass downvoted.

I just thought it was interesting to consider how blood pressure might be related to gravity.

I just felt like making a mass pun.

I'm wondering if caffeine was accounted for in this. One thing I seem to recall is peppermint tea has some inhibition of CYP1A2. I notice it's missing from the wikipedia page now, so maybe this was a flawed study or something... figured I'd mention in case anyone else knows.

At least this study says the activity was reduced, not significantly though: https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S02786...

Wild-ass guess: maybe the aftertaste of peppermint oil twice daily leaves people who are already unhealthy wanting to snack less, leading to minor weight loss.

As a bit of random speculation: improved digestion might reduce the “needy stomach” sensation associated with hunger.

It is a 0.7% drop, so very likely to not be significant unfortunately.

8/130 is ~ 6%

That is significant.

Of course, you would have to do a real study to see side effects versus current blood pressure medication, but if there is no real harm in peppermint, the 6% drop over an adult lifetime might make a large difference in vascular health.

I was talking about the waistline drop that the OP mentionned (85.17 -> 84.61).

I wouldn't put my hopes up that peppermint oil has anything to do with it.

Maybe it helps with weight loss (I wish)

It seems to aid in digestion, soothe upset stomach, so maybe it does.

It did help Mr Creosote.

But it was just wafer-thin!

I think its reducing bloating.

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