First Volt owner has driven 12K miles in 2 years, burned 26 gallons of gas
treehugger.com
treehugger.com
Similar to hybrid cars. They are better for the environment but that isn't that offset by the production of the batteries needed for the hybrid engine?
No. By abstracting the source of the energy, we can make one change in the method of power generation and immediately make a large number of electric cars "clean". So if we replace a coal plant with a nuclear or hydroelectric or solar plant, then everyone charging their electric cars with energy from that plant will suddenly be using clean energy. This isn't possible with the millions of gas cars out there, because they are only capable of using gas.
No. The oft-cited "Dust to Dust" report has been thoroughly debunked: http://grist.org/article/dust-to-dumb/ For just one example, they assume (with no real justification) that a Hummer will last 300k miles and a Prius just 100k. Invalidating that single assumption flips the result, and it's not the only one.
There's a false equivocacy going on in our heads when we fall victim to this kind of misinformation. "One advantage vs. one disadvantage. They must cancel out!" This is why it's important to do quantitative analysis. In reality, the addition of a battery and motor only adds about 10% to the embodied energy and disposal impact of a car, which itself is dwarfed by the fuel burned in its lifetime (by about 3:1).
The interesting question for me is: why do people worry about the Nickel in their car's battery but not in their car's steel-alloy frame?
0 mpg - stopped at a light
15 mpg - typical city driving
35 mpg - typical highway driving
A powerplant is always running its turbines. It's like car motor that is always on cruise control on the highway, without giving up energy to stop in traffic or throttle down.
The peak energy usage is normally right around dusk, since that is when people are getting home from work, lights are coming on, etc. If people charge their cars at this time that only makes things worse. Hopefully we get smart chargers that slow charging at this time, so while it doesn't cause a huge peak the car is still charging, and then increases charging power during the night. Just a thought.
It's not. Even the worst, dirtiest coal plant is going to be more efficient than your car engine, since it converts much more of the energy (given of as heat) into electricity. Economies of scale definitely apply to power plants.
Gas powered motors are still less brittle than grid-powered ones - it'd be tough to power a military force on grid power for example, but at that scale we should be using local fission powerplants anyway (ie, nuke subs).
[1] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_returned_on_energy_inves...
TLDR: Electric vehicles still win, but only just barely when you include the battery manufacturing costs.
The paragraph on that page that mentions batteries is not at all rigorous - it doesn't attempt to be. The statement "It could be predicted that most Priuses will be junked at age 10 years" strikes me as pretty contentious.
"Oh, electric cars are no good - we need hydrogen cars!" Or something like that. Who's saying that? Seemed to be energy companies, but it's IIRC. Electric cars allow for any energy source to be used (as well as multiple), in the generation of the electricity. I suspect a lot of people don't want that flexibility/freedom, and would instead prefer to lock down a few more generations of drivers to one specific type of fuel, even if it's not gas.
However, he made some good points: * Fossile fuel electricity generators (utilities power plants) are often times more efficient than burning the same amount in your car
* Also, all the electric infrastructure needed to distribute electricity is much 'greener' than the system needed to distribute fossile fuels to your local gas station.
So even though the power is from coal, it's production/transport/consumption makes it more efficient than simply using your 'gasoline' powered car.
As much as these are interesting points, I have not broken down the real impacts Elon mentionned, but I thought they made a lot of sense.
Replace "often" with "always". I don't know of any power plant that's less efficient than an automobile engine.
The efficiency increase just by going to fossil fuel grid power is pretty insane all by itself, even accounting for transmission losses. Even if we just kept burning fossil fuels in our power plants, and converted all cars to electrics, the efficiency increase would be incredible.
In the summer, on a clear day, I can look out my office window westward from the lakefront and see a thick cloud that covers everything past a certain distance.
(Thanks to hatberet further down)
Shows the electricity production by state; nowhere does using an electric produce more CO2 than a gas car.
Maybe theoretically, but if you do the math then even 100% coal isn't dirty enough – the Tesla Model S gets 24 MPGe in that case, compared to just 17 MPG for the BMW M5. Energy cost compares favorably as well – charging in Hawaii (37¢ per kWh!) would only cost 14¢/mi, compared to 20¢/mi for the M5 (@$3.50).
The question has never been, "which is the cheapest/cleanest to operate?" Batteries have been the clear winner for some time. The challenge that faces EVs is, "does the high initial price of batteries negate the lifetime savings?" We're not there yet for family cars, but for full-size luxury sedans it seems to have arrived.
In my Golf TDI I have a demonstrated of $0.114 per mile. That's in less than ideal conditions, with lots of city driving. If I drove almost all highway, I'd be getting more like 45mpg rather than the 34mpg lifetime I have, so at the current price of diesel ($3.90/gal) that'd be more like 8.6c/mile.
Hawaii is a worst-case scenario. Many electric vehicle owners (including Tesla) see about two or three cents per mile.
At California prices it costs 6.5¢/mile, and at average US prices it costs 4.7¢/mile. When you use Tesla's Supercharger stations it's free.
Also, not everyone lives in America. 100% of electricity in my country comes from renewable resources.
12k miles -> 19312.1 kms
26 gallons -> 98.4207 litersThe volt had 459 miles/gallon.
Assuming he drove a gas powered Honda civic instead he would have burned 375 gallons of gasoline (12000 / 32 combined MPG).
One ton of coal releases 2.86 tons of C02. One gallon of gasoline releases 19.64 pounds of C02.
Driving the electric vechile released 5.022 tons of C02.
Driving the gas civic would have released 3.68 tons of C02.
All numbers shamelessly cribbed from whatever google result seemed nice.
CO2 data from here: http://www.miloslick.com/EnergyLogger_files/State_Electricit...
It looks like there isn't any state where driving an electric actually produces more CO2 than driving a gas car. And that's before you include the CO2 generated from refining oil (which requires a fair amount of electricity).
Edit: Assumption is stated as 22mpg at the bottom of the page.
That's fair if you are comparing the Model S to a similar luxury car. It also means the Prius wins in a lot of states.
That's true. But I think Tesla is trying to sell the Model S to people who would otherwise buy a similar luxury car. There are a not-insignificant number of people in the world who just hate the Prius because it sacrifices handling, performance, and interior finish for the sake of fuel-efficiency. If Tesla builds and sells a car that those people like, isn't it still a net win? People who like hybrid Priuses can still buy them.
It's good that one half of the puzzle is mostly complete, as the electric car seems to be here for good. I think moving energy sources away from coal will be the more difficult and time consuming task.
FTFY
That's much harder to do for the car, because you only have a limited budget for space and weight to attach things to the car.
Industrial civilization is engaged in a war against entropy which it is destined to lose.
Driving a regular car 12k miles will net you about 4.6 tons of CO2.
His 36 gallons of gas, plus his electricity consumption if we assume that he uses about 36 kwh/100 miles and that he lives in New Jersey (as per http://media.gm.com/media/intl/en/chevrolet/news.detail.html...), which does not just burn coal for electricity production, we can expect him to have emanated ~1/3 ton of CO2 with his Chevy Volt over that period.
So a good 15 times better.
Anyway, if you had read the article you would see that he also drive his wife's car for long distances and as a retired airline pilot he gets free air travel. He was picked not for being representative but because he was the first.
http://ask.cars.com/2011/07/will-the-volts-gasoline-stay-fre...
On the other hand, I really believe that engineers working in Detroit of all places would have considered this.