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Comment by isoprophlex | Hacker News Reader

> You are also safer during a power outage. The STREAM 5000 provides up to 3 kW of off-grid output. Keep essential devices on its backup output and reserve some battery capacity, and your refrigerator, lights, router, and laptop can keep running when the grid goes down. An ordinary grid connection does not back up the whole house automatically; the backup output must be configured correctly.

Being able to cut over your entire house from grid power to a battery requires an invasive, expensive change to most connections. I wish people would stop breathlessly promoting batteries (which are good! we need decentralized storage!) because "you can use them to run your fridge, router, etc". Yes you can, but for almost all consumers it's an order of magnitude more effort and cash compared to just buying and plugging in a battery.

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And the proposed battery solution only works at up to 3kW. My electric range uses more than that, and my water heater, clothes dryer, and aircon each come close.

And, sure: I can get by very well with refrigeration, networking, computing and/or TV, and lights during a power outage. But those loads need to be segregated, or it just doesn't work. That adds more expense.

And since those segregated loads don't even come anywhere near 3kW, it isn't clear to me how I'm to be maximizing my local use of surplus power events.

There are grid-interactive battery solutions from companies like EG4 that can go betwixt the entire house and its grid connection, but this isn't it.

Why do you need to segregate them? Can't you switch the rest off? Or is the problem that otherwise you'd supply neighbors as well?

Just because it's the real world. :)

If things aren't segregated and the power goes off while I'm cooking, the aircon is running, the water heater is doing its thing, or whatever, then: I exceed 3kW.

3kW is the maximum that the device can supply. If load exceeds maximum, then something will (must) fail.

Hopefully it fails gracefully, but I mean: I've been married before and I understand how terrific and fantastic it can be when things go slightly wrong at home when I'm not around to address them. The less Rube Goldberg my creations are, the more peaceful my life is.

(None of this modern name-brand grid-tied stuff is any particular danger to linemen. It won't output anything on those terminals if it doesn't have an AC waveform to synchronize with.)

Not necessarily the point. If it provides a normal wall outlet I'm happy to plug essentials around for the one time per 1-2 decades this happens for longer than 4 hours and the fridge/freezer/laptop needs a boost

As long as you're not opening the fridge / freezer during the outage (and you have sufficient thermal mass of food in it) you don't need to worry about "boosting" it during a power outage of only 4 hours. I don't recall the rule of thumb off the top of my head, but for at least 6 hours I'd expect the contents of normal fridge / freezer to be just fine (as long as there's thermal mass there).

Can confirm from years of load shedding in the past in South Africa where my area had 4 hour outages.

That duration was tough for various reasons, but fridge and freezer were not really an issue.

I was very happy when they changed to 2 hour outages (albeit twice as many), and then even happier with not having load shedding for about 2 years now.

They said longer than 4 hours

Yes, thanks, indeed I'd start doing this *after* 4h if I have such a battery since fridge, freezer, and laptop are all in different places and they'll run for 90 minutes to cool or charge and it's probably not bad to get around to all towards the end of the first day with no stress. It was just an arbitrary starting point really. Freezer contents are also all fine after 24h but maybe some edges got towards the thawing point. I've not tried it out and simply wouldn't care to find out

The issue there is the plug would be on the battery which you're unlikely to have mounted in a convenient location for things like your main fridge, router, and computer. For me all 3 of those are pretty far away from the most likely places I'd put a battery bank. I have a mobile one I keep charged up for emergencies and long power outages and have a small portable solar panel for it for multiday outages.

Ah, right I was picturing an oversized car battery that you can lug around. Extension cord then? Not sure but this seems surmountable without having to rewire the house and get a permit or licensed unit for feeding the grid

The size the article is talking about are usually around 100 pounds or ~50kg at least. My solution is the much smaller Anker Solix C1000 and it's outboard battery extension. It can output up to 1800W sustained with a 2.4 KW peak and the two units together have about 2100 Wh of capacity. They're small enough to move around by hand when disconnected but can't do the kind of peak shifting the OP article was talking about so they're purely backup or car camping power. I used them to power my WFH setup while my electrical service was being upgraded a while ago though and it worked well enough.

Right, and some of us have a fine tradition of using extension cords as a way of powering some things during an outage with, eg, a portable generator buzzing away outside.

It's clunky and haphazard, but it can work well-enough for rare use.

But one of the big sells in the article for this device is that it can be used to buy power when it is cheap, and sell power when it is expensive (at least in markets that support that kind of operation). This can be good for the owner (who can make some money doing it), and also good for the grid (the price fluctuates when supply and demand aren't well-balanced, and this function helps to balance things).

That kind of functionality, on its own, can tend to require some real wiring changes and permitting.

(Or not. Electricity rules vary wildly around the world. They aren't even necessarily consistent within one nationality.)

I dunno. TBH I'd rather just let the food go bad than bother with the expense and hassle of having a battery and keeping it charged. I guess other locations may have less reliable grids than I do, but I've only experienced one power outage that lasted so long[1] that our food went off in my entire 40 years living in the Twin Cities area.

[1] About 96 hours, major storm took down a ton of trees through the whole metro area that took days to clear.

I can't even remember the last power outage we had that was not self-inflicted (a year ago our old microwave oven permanently tripped the residual current device).

Also, according to the article, it seems to pay itself back in 11-12 years. I'd rather pay the little extra to not have a huge lithium battery in our appartment that cannot be extinguished with a normal fire extinguisher if it decides to ignite itself.

The device's primary use would be using excess solar power from during the day, or excess wind on rare occasions. This would just be a nice benefit and I just meant that it doesn't have to keep up with the whole house during an outage to still help out in a pinch

I’ve generally come to this opinion as well. The only thing I would seriously consider auxiliary power for is the furnace.

Winter storms tend to come in cold stretch’s that can cause major freeze havoc.

Must be nice. I live in Virginia, outside Richmond. For the past 8 years, the power company has failed to provide me with even 3 nines of power availability (that means at least 9 hours of outage every year for the past 8 years. Just had a 17 hour outage as of last night, lost everything in my fridge. Again.)

I think you're right -- depending on the country.

It seems australia has very low friction

and US with our power companies, significantly more

- where you going to find an electrician?

- do you need someone to design your grid-tie plan?

- when will the power company approve your connection?

I've had friends wire their house, have to really work to plan the setup, and be stuck with a working system offline while PG&E approves slowly

Another point: People might be better served NOT buying a battery, instead getting an EV and wiring it into their house.

for example: https://www.tesla.com/powershare/

or just "bidirectional charging" for other brands

The cost/invasiveness of cutover is dropping. There is a relatively new category called "plug in solar" where the inverter/battery is smart enought to detect, sync and use grid power.

The Stream system: Connect the device to the grid to enable it to feed power into the grid or draw power from it when solar energy is insufficient. This can be done via a standard home outlet (if permitted), or through a circuit breaker. [0]

0. https://manuals.ecoflow.com/us/product/stream-ultra?lang=en_...

If a fridge is your only concern, they make UPSes specifically for fridges.

https://duckduckgo.com/?q=Uninterruptible+power+supply+refri...

I disagree. During an outage, you need your fridge and a few other essential items. A novice can plug into the back. The device tells you the load and whether you are exceeding. And you can test it at any time. For $600 you can get started without an electrician.

it's the easiest, safest , most affordable and most reliable emergency solution ever available.

For a relatively small battery like that, it's not going to last for days. In the typical outage where that battery would carry you, you can typically just leave the fridge closed and it will stay cold enough to prevent 99% of your stuff from spoiling. For most people (at least the US), it's not super easy to get at the plug in the back of the fridge anyway.

Running HVAC is usually more of a concern, especially in winter or peak of summer, and those aren't device that you can hot-plug, and a small battery wouldn't help there anyway.

I like the idea of whole-house batteries, but to really make it practical you're talking about thousands of dollars to the battery, install, etc. And you still don't have extensive run time, which is why I think you see most people still leaning towards permanent or portable generators way more than batteries.

People need to make decisions about how much resiliency they want. A medium-sized battery greatly enhances your options in an outage. A "solar generator" expands them yet farther. A whole-house generator somewhat farther. It's a lot easier and cheaper if you don't insist that your "resiliency" be "I live my life with no compromises whatsoever".

But I would advocate that "zero resiliency" needs to be seen as being socially irresponsible. It is socially irresponsible that as soon as a service goes out that you are immediately in an emergency. You should not offload basic resiliency on to emergency services. Yes, if you take a direct hit from a tornado you're going to be leaning on emergency services, but the house a quarter mile from touchdown that may be out for three or four days needs to be able to deal with that. If nothing else, emergency supplies are a lot cheaper when it's not an emergency.

Don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good, and especially so when perfect is so much more expensive and so much less relevant than the good.

> It is socially irresponsible that as soon as a service goes out that you are immediately in an emergency. You should not offload basic resiliency on to emergency services.

Sure, but that's not a remotely accurate description of a house without a backup battery or generator.

I grew up in hurricane country and weathered many bad storms. Losing power does not put you immediately in an emergency. If you don't open the fridge much, your perishables will last a couple of days. Non-perishables will last much longer. Having a battery is the difference between "we can hang out and grill dinner for 5 days before we need to hit the road" and "we can hang out and grill dinner for 6 days before we need to hit the road". That distinction does not significantly change your strategy.

Losing water is a much bigger emergency but is thankfully rarer and a backup battery won't help.

Climate change will change this story somewhat in the South. If you are in a very hot climate, elderly, or have other health issues, then losing electricity and air conditioning in the summer can be an immediate emergency. Again, though, A/Cs consume so much electricity that a backup battery won't help you much.

I think you're significantly overestimating the emergency value of a battery backup. Loss of electricity is rarely a rapid emergency. In cases where it is, a generator will at least give you as much power as you care to store fuel.

Generators don’t work that well. They need regular use and maintenance. Fuel storage is complicated (you will need 30+ gallons a day, or about 2 sedan tank’s worth. Connecting to your panel is expensive at least $2k+. They are smelly and noisy. And if it’s a real emergency, everyone will know you have one , and eventually come knocking.

For $2k you can buy 3 Ankers and distribute around the house. With a propane camp stove you can cook. So the only utility failing during a power outage is your air conn. If it’s winter you can run a gas fireplace to keep warm.

In my area we have power outages in the fall and winter wind storms due to trees falling. We need electricity for the fridge, fireplace, lighting , internet & devices. Lithium batteries work great. We get a few outages every season, usually for 2-6 hours .

My neighbors have a generator for “emergencies” and don’t end up using it because it’s such a PITA. He has it for SHTF, but then he will have to consume the gas from his cars (and siphon it), which means making the decision between home comfort and evac.

My point is that every solution covers a range of scenarios based on convenience, cost, resilience, versatility and more. There is no one size fits all .

And now these lithium battery backups provide a broad amount of coverage that is safe and convenient for novices to run.

People here buy natural gas generators[1] and just connect them into the existing gas lines. (I realize natural gas is not part of the utility mix everywhere.) Gas still flows when power is out, and common generators are big enough to power even A/C.

1 - https://www.homedepot.com/p/Generac-14kW-Air-Cooled-Auto-Sta...

You’re right it’s more convenient than gasoline, but most of the other hassles apply (dirty/smelly, maintenance, noisy)

What are you running that uses 30+ gallons of gasoline per day? Personal AI datacenter? I barely use that much in my car per month.

You should be able to expect at least 4-6kwh per gallon at the generator output. So $25 worth of gas in a 5 gallon can stores 5x the energy of a $2000 battery. The only maintenance I've done on my generator is to drain the fuel lines after use. Maybe change the engine oil once or twice per decade. Apart from that, it runs just as well as 30 years ago when it was new.

True, the gasoline doesn't last that long in storage, but I just use it to fill my car every now and then, and get new gas.

What’s your point? How long are you getting on 5 gallons? Maybe 10 hours if you’re lucky. And I hope you’re not using your 30 year old generator on anything with an IC – the power is too dirty to use with electronics.

deferring the maintenance is your choice, but I wouldn’t recommend it.

> Generators don’t work that well. They need regular use and maintenance.

So do lawnmowers and chainsaws.

>Fuel storage is complicated (you will need 30+ gallons a day, or about 2 sedan tank’s worth.

You put it in containers and put them in your garage.

>Connecting to your panel is expensive at least $2k+.

You don't have to do that. Just run some extension cords through your house.

> They are smelly and noisy.

So is everyone after a couple of days in the South without air conditioning!

> And if it’s a real emergency, everyone will know you have one , and eventually come knocking.

This is a feature, not a bug. It's how communities take care of each other.

> > It is socially irresponsible that as soon as a service goes out that you are immediately in an emergency. You should not offload basic resiliency on to emergency services.

> Sure, but that's not a remotely accurate description of a house without a backup battery or generator.

I don't mean it as one. Resiliency is my end goal, and "a reasonable amount" at that, not "I can reboot civilization from the zombie hordes with just what is in my shed". If you are already resilient with just a house and what it will naturally do without power, hey, great. A battery opens up options, but if it is not worth it, it isn't worth it.

It should be a social expectation that you can survive a reasonable 2-3 days without power and whatever other service outage you have without having to immediately hit the stores or drawing on emergency services. I do not care exactly how you achieve that. I don't care if you're carrying on like nothing happened in a well-lit house with AC on full blast or if you're eating beans out of a can and drinking bottled water. I just care that people should be expected to be at least a little resilient, for all sorts of pro-social reasons, that if you have your additional needs like an oxygen machine or necessary medicine that you have the buffer in place, and so on. (Which does imply certain perscription practices keeping you on a short leash are in violation of this, but that's another discussion.)

I mean, it's also a selfish expectation to be able to survive a couple of days without services. As a general rule, people prefer not to die.

My point is just that a cheap battery backup does not have a significant effect in the resiliency strategy for most people.

I am certainly not a prepper, but even viewing that scene from the outside, it is absolutely rife with what I would call "preparedness theater". Things you can buy (it's always about buying stuff) that would save you in some imagined horrific scenario but where the odds of the scenario happening in just the right arrangement where that object helped are infintesimal.

Like, yes, if your car drives into a freezing cold deep lake and you are somehow too incapacitated to open your seatbelt but not too incapacitated to use a knife, then keeping a dive knife in your glove box next to the ceramic "break windshield" thingy might be worth it, but you're more likely to win the lottery than have that happen.

There is a set of people whose brains are wired such that they are easily nerd sniped into obsessing about these sorts of things. When they do, they are also compelled to share it and spread it like some kind of mind virus. It takes a certain amount of mental discipline to not fall down every one of those rabbitholes. I believe the author telling the world to arrange joint battery buying parties for friends is well along that path of crazy.

Don't waste time and money organizing a joint battery purchase for your friends. Keep some non-perishables and a few gallons of water in your house. Fill your gas tank before it gets all the way to empty. Learn how to cook and some basic first aid.

Winter is a better use case, because losing power during deep sub-zero temps can lead to plumbing damage and even be dangerous, but doesn't require too much power if heat uses natural gas as the main power source.

sure we can quibble over convenience, but it's an outage, and you have to make it work. Look at the testing for the Anker Solix S2000 they are getting 2+ days of regular refrigerator use , which is what people care about primarily .

What other option is easier or more affordable? A generator has to remain outside, so it needs panel connection ($$) , lots of extensions ( $, hassle), needs a generous fuel supply, and regular maintenance.

And plug-in solar is becoming legal in the usa. within 3 years everyone will be running these little things, and you'll come around.

Exactly zero plug in solutions should be outputing power during an outage, if designed correctly, because they will be backfeed out of the house and into a grid. Most legislation directly addresses this.

So you're back to getting a tranfer switch installed or lots of cords anyways.

The plug in technology available today accounts for that. Soon they will be available in all 50 states.

Fair, but I live in a wooded, semi-rural area and have had 7 outages this year, with one lasting over 8 hours.

I really get where you're coming from, but I'm approaching this from the ~$1500, 5 kWh battery in TFA, which weights 50-60 kg, should be installed somewhere out of the way in a non-fire-hazardous manner. They're great, they can load-shift a meaningful chunk of daily consumption for most european homes don't just move these around to your freezer. They don't magically make you independent in case of grid failures, it's just not what they're for. And to get the average consumer to adopt these, the messaging about what they can and can't do should be crystal clear.

I mean, yes and no. Switching your whole house over automatically? Yeah, ok, that can get invasive and expensive. Running an extension cord from a battery/inverter or generator a multiport plug then to to your fridge, router and a couple of lights? That's about 5-10 minutes of effort.

There's a pretty massive middle ground between "plug in a battery" and "rewire the house.

Switching the whole house is cheap compared to the generator or battery needed to run everything in the house. Of you can't run everything then you may as well have nothing. The important things need a lot of power.

> Of you can't run everything then you may as well have nothing.

Who says? Say I need my fridge, freezer, router and a light or two. That's $4k. Whole house? $25-35k.

Also, I have a wood burning stove and piles of firewood).

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