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Comment by vrganj | Hacker News Reader

It's an ideological thing. (We just had a conversation about ideology actually, remember?)

Capitalism has always been a tension between capitalists, who want maximum return on capital and workers, who want pesky things like a living wage, sick leave or safe work conditions.

For the longest time, the only power labor has had to get those things was the power of collective bargaining. No agreement with your workers meant no production happened.

Now, there's finally a chance at salvation. The capitalist Messiah is AGI and it will finally deliver them from those annoying laborers.

This ideological bent is why they're putting everything they have into AI. It's why VCs and their fellow capitalists are going so crazy.

They see it as a way to finally solve the contradictions of their ideology, but in reality it'd only create a new one: If everyone's out of a job, who will buy their products?

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If they had AGI, why would they need consumers anymore? Just use your drone army to secure all natural resources and produce whatever you need for yourself. Other humans are just pets.

And this is why we need to escape the permanent underclass.

How about we don't create one instead?

It's not a choice we have, unless you want to figure out a global AI ban treaty.

AI will make human thought economically useless. In the new economy, the one economically useful thing we will be able to do is legal property ownership.

> The one economically useful thing we will be able to do is legal property ownership.

This is correct. But we don't need to ban AI to avoid the permanent underclass nightmare.

It's time for the means of production to be owned communally.

It's either a cybersocialist utopia or a neofeudalist dystopia.

Rosa Luxemburg formulated it pretty well more than a hundred years ago: Socialism or Barbarism!.

What kind of political leverage do the useless have? This isn't a realistically sustainable outcome.

Today, people have leverage because removing them has real economic consequences. With AI, we need to be on the useful side of the divide to have any leverage.

And then we'd better hope AI has respect for property rights.

Property rights might be the least of your problems.

Apathetic mass-murder is unjustifiable, and the ultrarich would need to justify it to their families, who would then need to justify it to other people they know, and so on. And remember that we're talking about the majority of the global population, an event like that couldn't be hand-waved away like one would do for a minority group.

Iran just mass murdered their protesters earlier this year, and they needed to convince humans to pull the trigger. It didn't seem to be that hard for them to justify.

It's probably a lot easier to convince the military AIs we're building to do it.

I don't particularly like the situation, but I plan to do what I can to be on the winning side. The world is going to be what we're all in on building, and for people on the winning side it may be a utopia. Either way, I know which side of the gun I want to be standing behind.

Also note that an AI well aligned with the people who initially trained it wouldn't need to actually kill anyone that didn't take action against the owners, it would just need to outcompete people for resources, and let them fend for themselves in extreme poverty. There's no need to act one way or the other beyond that.

Not comparable at all. The Iranian protesters are/were a minority group within a country that itself makes up 1.1% of humanity.

I'm talking about morality here, not practical ability. The ultrarich have their circle of friends and family, who themselves have their own social circle, on and on until suddenly you're not looking at wealthy people anymore. Six degrees of separation and all that. How many people in the social graph can know about this extermination plan before the whole thing collapses?

Why would they take action to exterminate anyone, when they can simply ignore them and let them live and die in extreme poverty, unable to participate in the economy? The west already accepts this kind of poverty with the sweatshop workers, and nobody bats an eye.

It's just disenfranchisement. Only the people who try to use violence to replace the political leverage they lose when they lose economic leverage would need any action taken against them, and that's easy to justify as self defense.

Because 7.5 billion people with nothing to lose would quickly turn chaotic and mass-murdery. 90% of humanity in idle poverty is impossible to justify, at least today they do something of value that can be used as a retort by the morally unscrupulous. A black-and-white situation where a few get everything, most get nothing and do nothing for anybody else is beyond justifying, so the self-defense argument wouldn't work.

It's already been here for much of the 20th century, and everyone seems to have just accepted it. We're just going to have Europe and America join sub-saharan Africa.

I think it's inevitable.

The moral justification for the existence of poverty is one of purpose and worth through contribution to society. The family member of an ultrarich baron can sleep at night mostly due to the idea that those who are rich contribute value to humanity as a whole, ergo those who are poor simply aren't working hard enough or contributing in a meaningful way ("just world fallacy" etc)

When AGI becomes reality, that reasoning disappears. When everyone's worthless, no one is. Thus the scenario you speculate about would need everyone in the upper echelons of society to be consciously, openly sadistic power-hungry people, which is not the case even when taking into account the higher dark triad rates among them.

I consider DOGE actions to be pretty much exactly what you describe, with their sudden destruction of USAID and defunding of climate science

That all makes a lot more sense in light of the current hunger for power for data centers.

Yep :(

What kind of political leverage did a French peasant have in the 1780s?

Well, the gap in armament between them all the French military was relatively small.

Why did you think there's a massive uptick in surveillance and policing technology and automation? It's to make the French solution unfeasible.

> It's time for the means of production to be owned communally.

What does this mean in practice? That an individual cannot own a machine (which is a means of production)?

I think we'll have to figure out the details, of course.

As a first intuition, I feel like its mostly server farms and data centers that are the concern, large scale means of production.

It feels right that those would be communally owned, be that via democratic government or maybe some sort of worker owned coop?

But those won't get built by companies in the first place, because you want to constrain what companies can own.

Nothing prevents the government or coops today from building these things.

Budget does. Budget that you can extract by taxing hyperscalers aggressively.

No. AI as a tech is not an issue. The wealth and power accumulation in the hands of Amodei, Altman, Thiel, Musk, Karp and the rest of CEO is the issue.

Permanent underclass is ideological goal of the above people. AI is an impersonal technology with no goals or wishes.

I'm not sure how that changes anything -- sure, if you blocked people from using AI, it wouldn't have any effects on society, but once people have access, what they do with it matters.

There's an inevitable effect that it has, and the only lever you have as an individual is being on the right side of that.

Copy the technology and give people access without trying to financially profit from it.

Even if the US federal government refuses to act, smaller government entities can deploy their own compute clusters running strong open-weights models like Kimi K3, and provide their own citizens with free access to strong AI models. There may come a time when even Chinese providers no longer release strong model weights, but then the previous generation of strong open-weights models can be used to accelerate the development of data pipelines and training setups to build the next generation. California or Australia (or many others) could fund university-led R&D efforts to build completely open models.

Despite the angry noises that leading providers make about their model outputs being used to train competing models, that's not illegal. States can use Common Crawl, Anna's Archive, Books3, commercial model outputs, and whatever other data sources that are useful for building models. States have sovereign immunity to ignore copyright complaints, if they decide to pursue model development.

The big AI companies don't have much of a moat. Let the big companies spend a fortune figuring out what works best, then openly build imitations having 95% of the capability at 5% of the cost.

The first one to AGI with enough compute to run the AI wins it all. Humans will not be able to compete.

If Anthropic is the first to develop AGI, then everyone else becomes subordinate to Dario Amodei? And if DeepSeek is the first to get there, everyone instead becomes subordinate to Liang Wenfeng? I cannot believe that there is a threshold of intelligence where getting there first means a decisive and durable advantage. If you do believe that getting there first means ruling the world, then our viewpoints are probably too far apart for mutual understanding.

It's not so much whether we believe this, it is about whether they and enough of their supporters believe it. Because the effect of believing that is what drives their need to 'be the first' at the expense of everything else.

It depends what you mean by 'subordinate' -- but even a small but persistent advantage in decision making compounds, so I can't imagine that someone getting that advantage doesn't use it to kill their competition.

No? Plenty of dumb people and dysfunctional political systems stayed for loooong or even won a lot of power.

The problem is not access to AI. The problem is the lack of antitrust, the lack of white collar crime enforcement, the tax system that allows them to accumulate wealth while avoiding payments. The problem is legal regime with winner takes all monopoly creation support.

AI is the least of the problem.

Indeed, but it does provide them with a lot of tools for those other items on your list.

If AGI had a drone army, why would it need them?

Can't help wondering if they've really thought this through.

I'm reminded of the scene in Independence Day with the people on top of the tower welcoming the alien spaceships. Except instead of celebratory fanatics holding poster boards saying "Welcome", it's all the singularity AI thoughtleaders holding hands in a circle chanting about Roko's basilisk like some new-age spirituality retreat.

I have seen that current AI models are capable of doing a sloppy job at many tasks when directed to do so, but I have never seen an example of a machine having its own volition.

> why would they need consumers anymore?

That was the exact line of thought, coupled with resources are limited (marketed as climate change), that led to the 1 child policy in China and many other decisions that shall not be spoken of.

I wish I was smart enough to credibly promise capitalists they could replace all their workers.

It doesn't matter that I can't do it. They'll pay me lots of money if they think I can.

> Capitalism has always been a tension between capitalists, who want maximum return on capital and workers, who want pesky things like a living wage, sick leave or safe work conditions.

The underlying purpose of AI is to allow wealth to access skill while removing from the skilled the ability to access wealth. (read on HN, not my words)

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