Safari 4 beta released | Hacker News Reader

Safari 4 beta released

crunchgear.com

99 pointsamitt89 comments

I've been using a lot of this in a developer preview for a while now, and the improvements over 3 are many, especially in the massively improved web inspector. The majority of the new things today are in the UI -- the tabs at the top, the top sites home screen -- and the majority of that is just Chrome done better.

I'm surprised at how quickly they've aped Google, actually. Perhaps just to spite them for taking so goddamn long over Mac Chrome? To be honest, I'd rather they'd aped the process-per-tab thing more.

Still missing: undo last tab close. Don't like the fixed "Add bookmark" button much, either.

The Web Inspector is actually part of WebKit itself (the rendering engine). You can get any improvements that happen there and between the chrome (HTML, CSS, JavaScript) by downloading WebKit nightlies: http://nightly.webkit.org

This update is for Safari itself, which is the UI/chrome.

As it is part of WebKit it on Linux you can play with the inspector using Arora

http://code.google.com/p/arora/wiki/Screenshots

I've been using the Web Inspector in WebKit nightlies for awhile now and it still doesn't measure up to FireBug.

Even the simplest thing like changing CSS properties on the fly just don't work right in Web Inspector yet. I can't wait for it to catch up though so I can quit running 2 browsers simultaneously all the time!

I still like Firebug better too. Unfortunately its debugger has massive stability issues (at least on larger files). I can kind of get it to work if I talk really nicely to it. Not clear to me what the source of the problem really is, but the last few releases have been mostly bug fixes, and they seem to introduce as many bugs as they fix. That's a bad sign.

I don't see why they'd "spite" Google for taking long on Chrome. They don't want Chrome on the Mac... they get to charge Google for the searches that come through Safari.

Chrome is the best browser I've used yet. Firefox is nice but I'm a big fan of minimalism and chrome is minimal in most aspects.(Except Memory but I will sacrifice memory for sanity)

I'll take a Vimperator over Chrome for minimalism at least as far as interface. It has all the Firefox issues with memory.

I too am a big Vimperator fan. Plus, it forces practice of the number bar, something that I'm still not awesome at even after all these years.

Firefox takes ages to load. All the plugins everyone loves so much are hogs of memory and just plain annoying. The only plugins worth a damn are adblock and greasemonkey, the rest Chrome already has.

Also I cannot seem to grok vim/emacs.

Goodbye, native controls and window decorations. I'll miss you.

http://i43.tinypic.com/2mk2uo.png

Surprising that they skimped on XP. On Vista it looks excellent.

Better, but not excellent.

The min-max-close buttons look good, but the mouseover effect on the menubar is horrible, the input fields for url and search are non-standard. And why can I drag a tab when there is only one?

It might not be native, but it works really well.

To be fair, Firefox has never used native controls. Not on Mac at least. So if thats your best comparison, there's not much to miss (from some peoples POV at least.)

How does it look in the Classic view? I'm curious how they fit all the widgetry into the smaller frame

It doesn't look good. But not for the reason you're expecting.

http://i41.tinypic.com/33mpwus.png

Notice anything missing?

Use the arrow keys, duh!

Great pic, shame you didn't include an Office product with the ribbon showing.

A few thoughts:

1) The Top Sites needs a way for me to manually add a site I want to add. It looks beautiful but right now I've got one site in my top list that I feel shouldn't be there, because I didn't like my #6 and cycled through far too long, looking in vain for the one I wanted. (EDIT: Fixed!)

2) The feel is incredibly Mac-like. This is what I've wanted Safari to be like all along.

3) People that run the browser in "anti-chrome" mode (remove the bookmarks bar and the URL bar and run all searches with CMD-L) will find this to be the best solution they've ever used. Now there's a single line, since even the tab bar is gone. Brilliant solution on Apple's part to the problem of eliminating chrome. Furthermore, there used to be a bug where the search bar wouldn't vanish if you used the Google search bar during CMD-L. That bug is gone, meaning there's no need for a workaround (though I still think having a shortcut for a javascript-prompt Google search is the best solution).

4) It's a little harder to drag the tab bars around: I like that they let you detach more simply, but rearranging will take a week's getting used to.

5) Using Zoom with multitouch is incredible - I love how that feels - but not quite perfect. It's too responsive.

6) Multiple tabs look great - I like the expanded view and the faded out text that appears.

7) Trying to open an old tab I keep trying to double click, which minimizes the window. Not quite optimal.

8) No spinning loader for the page I'm currently on? Frustrating.

On 1) You can (at least on Mac) — drag a site icon from address to Desktop, then open a new tab with Top Sites and drag the alias into it. (But be careful: I just did this, and can't remove the site from Top Sites :)

Excellent! Worked perfectly. (If you go to Edit, you should be able to delete it. I tried and it worked.)

Yep, I've been in Edit mode already, and there were no buttons for dropped site. Guess you should first press "Done", and only then drop an alias.

No, after you add the sites and press done, you'll have to click on the thumbnails to visit the site. Only then will the edit icons appear on re-editing.

Which, I guess, is a bug.

The one thing I always, always miss when I attempt to switch from Firefox to Safari is how Firefox automatically executes an I'm Feeling Lucky search from the address bar. It's an even better feature now that it searches my history/bookmarks first, allowing me to save the I'm Feeling Lucky step if I find a match first.

Safari mimics the live search of bookmarks/history in Safari 4, but what happens if I don't find a match there? I'm left with the search term in my address bar, and now I have to jump over to the Google Search field, retype my query, execute it, and then mouse down to the search results to get where I'm going.

Sigh.

Of course, if Firefox didn't regularly take up 15-20% of my CPU resources after having it open for 10 minutes I wouldn't be trying out new browsers every 3 months!

I liked the unified approach that Chrome used a lot. Safari's wonky solution (go to "[].com") is one of the few things I dislike about the browser. However, I don't often find a need to search for a query I type into my browser, since I most often use direct URLs for that.

Once you get used to using the address bar as a search field, it's addicting. Right now, for example, I'm working on a project in Django, so I'll type things like "django queryset" in my browser bar and it will pop me straight through to the documentation for it.

Point being, I use it for more than just hitting the home page of a website.

I guess my browsing model works a bit differently, then. I use a keyboard shortcut to search, so that's just as approachable as the URL bar to me.

> I use a keyboard shortcut to search

Out of curiosity, what do you mean?

I have Command-E mapped to Safari's search bar, and Command-2 mapped to a Javascript prompt to search (which helped with a bug that seems to have disappeared in Safari 4). Since the two fields were an equal number of keystrokes away, I've never found myself entering something in the URL bar that I meant to search. (I guess if I did have to, I would Command-A-C-tab-V it to save time - not too much of a time loss.)

I accomplished this effect with Keywurl (http://purefiction.net/keywurl/) but apparently it doesn't work with the beta.

Yeah Firefox's address bar is the best. One feature which few people seem to know is the "keyword" field in bookmarks -- you can type a phrase in there (eg "bugs" for your local bug database) and Firefox will read that in the address bar properly. It makes browsing to key sites amazingly quick if you're a keyboard-focused user.

This is the main thing keeping me using Firefox. Now that I'm used to this, every time I try going back to Safari I feel crippled.

Try keywurl: http://purefiction.net/keywurl/

For me, it's the only essential plugin.

That reminds me, considering how small the project is, and how much I depend on it, I should probably donate some money (clickety-click). Done!

Still baffled by lack of proper auto completion for URLs based on the (HTML) title, e.g. typing 'hacker' into the address bar still does not offer me e.g. news.ycombinator.com even when this page has been loaded before, cached and stored in the history (btw: the new history search _does_ find URLs based on the title and other page content).

Is that a huge complaint? I've always liked that I can just use the URL and have it autocomplete. (On Firefox, if I type "n" and hit enter it doesn't take me directly to news.ycombinator.com, and that always irritates me.)

mine does ;) https://addons.mozilla.org/en-US/firefox/addon/7423

Neat! I still don't see the use for the awesome bar, period, but that's a good workaround to have.

Why not just browser.urlbar.autoFill -> true?

Hidden settings: http://pastie.textmate.org/398861 (including blue progress bar and tab bar placing)

I like it so far. The only thing that bugs me a little is that when you open a lot of tabs, it's a bit more cramped than before (and I'm always afraid of hitting the "close tab" button), and that to re-arrange tabs, you have to drag them by the corner (otherwise you move the whole window).

Who can complain about an (alleged) increase of javascript speed of 4x.

Unfortunately, apparently still no support for plug-ins?

And the vaguely suggested help for developers... marginal: "built-in web developer tools to debug, tweak and optimize a website for peak performance and compatibility"

The built-in web developer is definitely on-par with Firebug and Web Developer. In some ways it's even nicer.

As far as plug-ins go, Safari's had them for years. Apple just doesn't support them or advertise them.

Funny, the flash blocking plugin I use still works.

http://github.com/rentzsch/clicktoflash/tree/master

It works because it uses Safari's real plugin architecture, not input manager hacks.

See http://74.125.77.132/search?q=cache:olonKuXb1G4J:developer.a...

"WebKit–Based Plug-ins"

This is how ClickToFlash works.

Unfortunately, apparently still no support for plug-ins?

Safari has supported plugins since before I got my first Mac. I use Inquisitor for searching right now. Google SafariStand if you don't believe me.

Mac users who want to block ads can get GlimmerBlocker, which blocks ads on every browser at once. If you want to customize Safari further, GreaseKit allows you to inject your own code into sites (it's Greasemonkey).

Apple won't do anything further. In their mind a program should be designed with the right features in mind up front, and then everything else can be hacked for the people who really, really care. Most of the people who use Safari like that a lot. I do.

These are input manager hacks, they are not real plugins.

My point was that the big things I'd want a plugin for you can do. GlimmerBlocker is incredible.

I don't want StumbleUpon. I don't want Snap Previews. I don't want del.icio.us or a music player plugin or whatever else plugins offer. I want a browser that lets me access the web as powerfully as possible. The only plugins I care about are the ones who make that more efficient.

I want delicious syncing. I like that in firefox on my linux box.

I'm not a Delicious user - I've never seen the point to storing my bookmarks on a web site - so that's a feature I never missed.

GlimmerBlocker supports injecting javascript and css, and it supports transforming the html (search-and-replace using javascript) before the html hits the browser.

I don't know if this is just in the version 4, but it seems to me a major bug the fact that I'm not able to cycle through tabs when I'm on a page with an input text box selected, like in Google.com.

Does anyone confirm this or is it just ignorance from my part?

It still works for me. Are you just referring to keyboard shortcuts, or can you not cycle through using the menu bar either? If you're trying to use cmd-shift-arrows, it won't work when a text field has focus, because they're the keyboard shortcuts used for selecting from the cursor until/from the end/beginning of the line. This changed a while back. Best to use cmd-shift-[ and cmd-shift-] instead, or the crazy new ones described in the menu. I'm not sure what the situation is for Windows.

Yes, I am on the Mac (sorry for the lack of info of the last comment), and I was trying cmd+shift+arrows. And yes, control+tab works, although it stills not jumps directly to the next tab if, as an example, you're on google.com with the input box selected it will jump first to the adress bar...

don't know why... but thanks. ;)

I like the location bar completion. It's a mixture of Safari/old Firefox's completion (+ faster speed) and the new Spotlight/FF3 style autocomplete. I think this is one example of good attention to detail on Apple's part.

Interesting that this release lacks the one notable feature of the Safari 4 Developer Preview. I wonder whether it's been cut entirely or simply cut from the beta release.

Which feature are you referring to?

The ability to save web sites as standalone applications.

So, what's webymnd's take on this?

There's a lot here that is the same as WebMynd's history functionality as we launched it last year. But now we're really focused on aggregating search sources on Google, and the history component and cover-flow visualization are only small elements of it.

I'm really not liking the Chrome style 'tabs on top' my eyes are used to looking in one place for a tab and now it's somewhere else! I use Firefox as my primary browser and only use Safari as a dedicated browser for Google Reader - the difference in tabs is going to confuse me for quite some time I imagine.

But when you get used to it you won't be able to go back.

I have a hunch this is a prelude to seeing it as a pervasive UI element in iLife and possibly as core UI element within Snow Leopard.

It seems when different Apple teams introduce something, it trickles into other applications. Smart Playlists/Mailboxes, and brushed metal theme come to mind. It'd be fun to do a study to see how one application influenced others and possibly the OS.

It does take some getting used to, but I love the extra vertical space it leaves for showing content. It's only a few pixels but I'll take what I can get on the 13" MacBook.

I don't like the tabs on top either, I can't use them when browsing in full screen with mega zoomer.

I agree. I'm really irritated as well that when you click the any of the tabs while Safari is in the background, it will bring Safari to the foreground AND make that tab active. I primarily use the "title bar" area of my windows to switch around. This is a huge annoyance.

Did they fix the bugs from 3.2.1 where Safari would forget your Facebook login and screw up logging into Gmail?

Yes. It was fixed nearly right away in Webkit nightlies.

I can't log into gmail with Version 4 Public Beta (5528.16) on mac.

You need to disable offline mode for it to work.

Thanks for the advice. This issue made me uninstall it almost immediately. Maybe I'll give it a shot now.

That was fixed (without comment) in the recent Security Update for Leopard.

Best point for me: more screen space because what used to be the tab bar has been reduced to 0px.

Worst point for me: Progress indicator is gone/almost invisible. I now have to check twice whether or not I properly clicked a link.

You can bring the process indicator back, as well as some other things, as I just found out at this blog post: http://swedishcampground.com/safari-4-hidden-preferences

Cool stuff, but I'm having a problem with the new Web Inspector... it seems to show the ungzipped file size for all files, rather than the gzipped one (which would be more useful).

I do love how minimal it is. It seems to be running really well on Windows 7 too.

I'll be interested to see how this compares to the Webkit nightly builds...

It is recent enough to support CSS explicit animations, one of the newest visible features added in WebKit. For example: http://webkit.org/blog-files/leaves/index.html

My google hosted email won't load with this.

Turns out it was because of Google Gears. I uninstalled Gears and it worked fine. If you have same issue, you can uninstall gears by running this command from your terminal (includ quotes):

'/Library/Internet Plug-Ins/Gears.plugin/Contents/Resources/uninstall.command'

Sorry about that. We are working on a build to fix this now.

It is pretty fast with respect javascript. Here are some results from my tests comparing it with Opera.

OS X: It way fater on every test except for 3D Mesh Transformation. (Safari:http://dromaeo.com/?id=60726, Opera:http://dromaeo.com/?id=60727). Safari was slower to respond compared to Opera during the tests and did consume more memory.

Windows XP: It way fater on every test except for 3D Mesh Transformation. (Safari:http://dromaeo.com/?id=60707, Opera:http://dromaeo.com/?id=60712). Safari wasn't responsive at all compared to Opera during the tests and did consume more memory.

Looks like my favourite browser, Opera, needs new javascript engine.

Yes, this is good.

On first glance it seems like they also fixed some of the blocking i/o issues that caused beachballs in Safari 3 and earlier - I wouldn't be surprised if they vastly improved this, since the whole history indexing thing probably is fairly intensive with disk.

For frontend web coder, here's yet another browser to test on.

It's WebKit...it passes Acid 3...what more do you want? If you write good markup and CSS, you should have no problem.

According to http://www.apple.com/safari/features.html,

"Enhanced Keyboard Navigation

Thanks to the enhanced keyboard navigation options in Safari, you can navigate the web without a mouse. Press the Tab key, and Safari jumps to the next password field, pop-up menu, or input field."

This is innovation !

Reply on news.ycombinator.com