Google’s sync changes are going to screw Gmail users on Windows Phone | Hacker News Reader

Google’s sync changes are going to screw Gmail users on Windows Phone

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32 pointspetrel56 comments

First off, Microsoft can fix this problem themselves, by supporting standards such as CalDAV and CardDAV. Microsoft is still very poor at supporting open standards over their proprietary ones. That needs to change for their own users sake, because Microsoft is not the only game in town anymore, and they can't seriously expect Google and Apple to pay them for the privilege of using their own proprietary stuff in the future, when they can use their own.

Second, WP has like 2-3% market share globally. Would you expect Google to support IE6 if it had a 2% market share? Google actually stopped supporting IE6 when it had 20%.

They just need to support EAS in their consumer stack. Google does support it and will continue to in enterprise. There's virtually no cost to them to support it on their consumer service. This is an attack against their Windows customers, not a cost cutting measure.

Google doesn't want us on their service. I'll comply.

I think there is a lot of cost to Google, they must pay for Exchange licences. I highly doubt that Google did this to cut off Windows Phone users, traditionally Google makes their services available to as many platforms as possible.

Yeah, another interpretation of this (and to be clear: I'm not saying that this is the case; just that it also fits the data we have) is that Microsoft has made the terms of an upcoming license renewal worse now that they have a more reasonable competitor to Gmail, thinking that they can use this to win back some of what are arguably their own customers.

>arguably their own customers

I use an Android phone but I wouldn't label myself as just a Google customer

I did say "arguably" (and I can't stress that enough: if you were Microsoft, wouldn't you feel like these are your customers? it doesn't really matter what the customers think); that said, if your purchase was affected by the fact that the device came with the Market and other Google-branded apps that Google only offers to manufacturers as part of a licensing program, then you are at least indirectly their customer.

Also, it should be noted that many of the people who need Exchange sync support are also doing so because they have an iPhone (where Google at least used to recommend you use the Exchange protocol to access Gmail instead of Apple's Gmail profile, as it allowed more content to synchronize; maybe Apple fixed this) or want the extended synchronization to work in clients like Outlook.

It just feels somewhat weird that Google /chose/ to do this, given the importance they ascribe to getting the most out of tools like Outlook that some Gmail users really want to access all of their content with: it doesn't really screw Microsoft very much as most normal people aren't tied to their e-mail address (like us techy people are)... it mostly helps Microsoft's Outlook.com service.

I know exactly one person who owns a Windows Phone 8 device (the 920). I can see where he is coming from because he is our SharePoint guy.

It would be really interesting to know if there's a per-user cost. If so, then it would seem to be extremely generous of Google to be paying Microsoft for the privilege of having Microsoft's users get free email access on their phone. If not, then it seems kind of mean. But then, when the other side is giving away free phones to people to publicly trash your operating system it must be hard not to be a little bit mean in return.

> This is an attack against their Windows customers, not a cost cutting measure.

I really don't think that Google has some weird malicious desire to fuck over Windows customers. I think this is just an effort to get Microsoft to play nicely with internet standards- which is good for everyone.

Google has also said they are not going to support Win8 at all.

And Google knows IMAP is pathetic as a replacement for mail.

If Google built a full fidelity open platform for Gmail and YouTube APIs then maybe I'd believe you. But as it stands today Google only believes in open standards when they aren't in a strong market position.

> And Google knows IMAP is pathetic as a replacement for mail.

Sorry, could you be more explicit?

> Google has also said they are not going to support Win8 at all.

Source? Last I checked, Chrome is fully supported, and whatever internet explorer comes with it is SURELY supported.... it'd be huge news if they didn't.

> And Google knows IMAP is pathetic as a replacement for mail.

Is it? It's much better than POP3, and to my knowledge it supports every feature of GMail I use but search and different star ("flag") colors. Syncing does suck, but that's syncing, not IMAP. I can't imagine downloading 2 gigs of email would be much better with another protocol.

> But as it stands today Google only believes in open standards when they aren't in a strong market position.

Hey, it's better than doing what Microsoft has done traditionally- i.e. using their strong market position to lock customers into closed systems.

But I'm really not trying to take sides in this matter- the customer gets hurt no matter who the target is. I just think that saying "Google is screwing over Windows users" is disingenuous; that's clearly not their intention (which is "Google is trying to manipulate Microsoft."). Microsoft is no longer the biggest kid on the playground, and they can't expect everyone to license their tech, especially when most mail-reading devices are probably not windows devices.

>Google doesn't want us on their service.

it's not that google doesn't want you, it's that google doesn't care about you. windows phone users are not a significant market share for anybody. nobody is going to go out of their way to do anything special for something with 2% market share (and if my server logs are any indication, more like 0.2% usage share)

Yet. Don't piss off potential customers. Its business 101.

If you're not pissing off anybody ever, you're probably doing something wrong.

Do you have a source for ’virtually no cost'? Often, sometimes intentionally, liscenced formats strongly favour one business model over another.

Your premise is absurd. Microsoft has the ActiveSync protocol patented to hell and back, and charges exorbitant licensing fees for its use. They're currently suing Motorola (a Google subsidiary) over exactly this. So, how about directing your ire at Microsoft for choosing to both not support open standards, and abusing the patent system to prevent others from reasonably implementing their proprietary standards. Because, I don't see any reason to get pissed at Google for not letting Microsoft continue to soak them on this.

To be honest, CalDAV is shit and doesn't encompass the feature set that either outlook or windows phone support. Microsoft are on the working group for the next gen stuff as are google so I'm sure there will be some convergence in the future.

> Apple and Google both support CalDAV and CardDAV natively, but Microsoft doesn’t support either.

Sounds like Microsoft's problem, not Google's. This is what Microsoft gets for not supporting existing open standards. In any case, surely they support IMAP? This seems like it affects google calendar/contacts and not gmail.

EDIT: I guess IMAP doesn't have push notifications, but that's hardly a crucial feature.

Push a fairly big one though. It's the whole reason I use Googles Exchange service. It's the only thin offering it on the iPhone.

Is push really that important? Polling every five minutes gets emails to me virtually instantly.

I suppose it would be very useful for maintenance alerts.

Push is the most crucial feature.

Because my device is already registered, I can continue to use exchange sync, but if it wasn't then I can say goodbye to using email for monitoring notifications.

If my site goes offline, I don't want to know in 5 minutes. I want to know right now.

> If my site goes offline, I don't want to know in 5 minutes. I want to know right now.

Sure- this isn't exactly the usual case, though, and if you require that, maybe you shouldn't use the free gmail account to get it. Most people just call when there are actual emergencies.

IMAP supports push through IDLE.

Works perfectly well for me on Thunderbird and K9(on Android).

That should be "screw gmail consumer users on new windows phones" - existing consumer users, and all current and future business/government/educations users don't appear to be impacted.

From the original post: http://googleblog.blogspot.ca/2012/12/winter-cleaning.html

"Google Sync was designed to allow access to Google Mail, Calendar and Contacts via the Microsoft Exchange ActiveSync® protocol... Starting January 30, 2013, consumers won't be able to set up new devices using Google Sync; however, existing Google Sync connections will continue to function. Google Sync will continue to be fully supported for Google Apps for Business, Government and Education. Users of those products are unaffected by this announcement."

CardDAV and CalDAV are not really good replacements to EAS. And IMAP is really pathetic. I'm on board with open standards, but if the proprietary one is better, then I'd like to use it.

Google's just using the "open" argument to screw people. If it's related to "open standards being better", drop EAS support on business accounts too. That'd be a commitment. This is just a chess move to drive the market to their direction.

CardDAV and CalDAV are open standards, no? Sounds like it's Microsoft's turn to step up to the plate.

"... Windows Phone users can choose to set up IMAP for Gmail, but this won’t support push mail. That renders the connection useless."

This is so incredibly hyperbolic. You still get mail right? Just after a minute instead of "instantly." If you need real-time communication pick up the phone or use a chat client.

This a million times. I just tried it on my WP7 device and to be honest I can't tell the difference between this and my exchange account.

Well, looks like I'll be switching to Outlook.com fully. I've been using it with my Gmail pushed to it for a while now, but I've often found myself wondering why I should be routing through Gmail in the first place. Without the ability to sync directly to my phone in the future, why bother? Its just really sucks having to bounce from service to service every few years because the boys can't play nice.

I don't understand why you think Google should support Microsoft's proprietary protocol rather than Microsoft supporting open protocols.

What open standard? IMAP? There is no adequate mail open standard.

IMAP is quite adequate. It's imperfect, but it's open and it's extensible. The same can't be said of ActiveSync.

IMAP, CalDav and CardDav.

It's a lot easier and cheaper to switch from Gmail to Outlook than it is to switch from Windows Phone to Android. Email is email, but my choice in phone is made on many factors and Android and iOS don't meet those many factors.

This might have something to do with Office 2013 supporting Exchange ActiveSync connections. My first thought was "awesome, Outlook calendar/contacts/mail push support without having to pay for Google Apps for business to use the Outlook Sync connector!". Google probably saw this as an attack on their business model.

Or: Microsoft is screwing their customers by not supporting open standard protocols.

More info on CalDAV & CardDav (both standards)

http://caldav.calconnect.org/standards.html

http://carddav.calconnect.org/standards.html

Situation seems to also affect Windows 8, RT, and Office..

http://www.zdnet.com/gmail-loses-google-sync-how-windows-8-r...

I've been delaying my migration off of Gmail. Google just accelerated it considering I'm moving all of my machines and family/friend machines in the next few months to Win8. Depending on how easy my final migration turns out to be, I may move everyone.

Thanks Google for the forced motivation.

If you want to live in a more closed proprietary ecosystem, that's your choice. Google is trying to get their users as far away as possible from that kind of closed world.

lol

trying to get their users onto proprietary gmail apps / webmail where they can eventually ramp up the advertising & personal information harvestry

> I'm moving all of my machines and family/friend machines in the next few months to Win8

So you're pushing expensive closed systems on everyone around you, but you're thanking Google for the "forced motivation"?

And what should he be pushing to the people he has to play IT for? Gentoo?

Honestly? I hate AAPL.. but their stuff. Absolutely their stuff. Push them to Apple and then stop "playing IT" for them.

Don't let the proprietary door hit you on the way out.

Doesn't this screw over iPhones users too? I'm currently using EAS with my free Google Apps account in order to get mail, contacts and calendar. Mail is easy through IMAP, but calendar and contacts are difficult to do otherwise, at least last I tried it in 2008. (Unless Google or Apple changed how those things work on the iPhone recently)

With the recent Google Apps announcement and this, looks like the bean counters have taken over at Google.

I stopped using Google's products when I realized how much they tracked everyone. It's pretty weird not knowing what information they have about everyone and the fact that everyone is OK with that.

This is clearly a move to try to ensure that the Windows Phone market share doesn't grow. It'll be interesting to see how it plays out and if Microsoft can get people to switch to Outlook.com instead of Gmail.

Why is everybody saying that they will only screw Gmail users on Windows Phone? As an iPhone user they will screw me too, because I will not longer have push if I use the Mail.app. The alternative is using the Gmail app of course, but that will only lock up users.

How much time until they announce that ALL the current users won't have this feature anymore?

Google really should think about the majority of their freeloading users when they do things like this!

... wait a moment...

Nobody is freeloading.

Again:

People pay for Google's consumer offerings with personal information.

I'm guessing you made this account because you know how stupid your ideas are.

It's a free service. People who offer free services owe you nothing. Your sense of entitlement is sorely misplaced.

Google has to pay Microsoft actual money for Active Sync. If this is not economically viable, then they can't continue paying money out of their own pocket for you to freeload.

Your offering of personal information is just not paying the bills, sorry.

I'm guessing you're either young or ignorant, so let me explain to you how it works with any Google product. I'll use Gmail as an example:

1) You sign up for Gmail

2) Google starts data mining all of your e-mail, scouring it for any type of keywords as well as using algorithms to determine your age, gender, sexuality, married, location, if you like Mac or PC, what mobile phone you have, what diseases you may have, etc... Remember this is on a HUGE scale and they can easily uniquely identify you using many methods.

3) Remember, that if you leave yourself logged in and then go to do a search on Google, they log that information too, they also log the information from you on YouTube or any other of their properties.

4) They now have all this information and they track you using cookies. So when you get to a site that uses Adwords or Double Click Google has a VERY good idea about what type of ads to place on that page to entice you to click on one of them.

5) Profit

Unfortunately, there's quite a large number of people out there who don't know what Google's doing. Just so you know the personal information IS paying the bills in a HUGE way. Google gets > 90% of all revenue from advertising. You seem to fall into that group. Please educate yourself and also try not to call people stupid as sometimes you MIGHT be wrong yourself.

Also, just so you know, the reason that Google is stopping EAS for personal Gmail accounts is to attempt to cripple the Windows Phone before it has a chance to take off. It's a shrewd business move and once again, it has nothing to do with economics.

> Also, just so you know, the reason that Google is stopping EAS for personal Gmail accounts is to attempt to cripple the Windows Phone before it has a chance to take off. It's a shrewd business move and once again, it has nothing to do with economics.

Got a source for that statement? For all we know, this could be related to the lawsuit following Motorola and Microsoft not being able to agree on the per-phone fee for ActiveSync. If the ActiveSync servers require a license per connected user (Client Access License), that would certainly seem like a valid cause for this decision.

When disagreeing, please reply to the argument instead of calling names. E.g. "That is an idiotic thing to say; 1 + 1 is 2, not 3" can be shortened to "1 + 1 is 2, not 3."

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