How do payments work in the US, China, and Brazil? | Hacker News Reader

How do payments work in the US, China, and Brazil?

andrewacomb.substack.com

42 pointsacombandrew14 comments

This article is written almost entirely from the seller's point of view, of course seller does not want to pay any fees. Some of the claims that buyer get same level of protection without chargeback is hilarious, it might be true that the author get special treatment as a foreigner in China from the government (the 12315 statement), but that's far from a typical customer experience.

"Chinese consumer law also gives buyers stronger remedies when a merchant knowingly commits fraud, including damages above the purchase price."

There is no small claim court or equivalent in China, 12315 is likely the closest but they can only provide recommendations, they cannot freeze assets or issue demands like a court. In absence of chargeback, the buyer owns the burden of gather evidence and proof, which usually includes paid test reports from trusted government agencies that the item is defect. In practice, a seller ships junk or nothing often get to keep the money and close the shop before you can get the money back.

You can't chargeback on debit cards which most of the world uses so this point is moot for most people. I've never owned a credit card in my life and while it's not exactly a hot topic of conversation I don't think most of my friends or family have either (European). I rely on EU consumer protection laws rather than chargebacks, and those wouldn't change if I was paying by a QR code instead of Visa.

You absolutely can do chargebacks on debit cards. I say this as an european, having done chargebacks myself and having advised friends in doing the same, with debit cards. I can only say this for Visa/MasterCard branded cards though; rules may be different in national networks.

I just looked it up and you're right, but chargeback is like a fraud dispute then? I did have to make a dispute on a completely fake charge on my card once, through visa, and it took weeks, they denied it once, then they threatened me that if I appealed that and it got denied again there was going to be a ~€500 charge for the failed appeal. Given that the actual fraud was about €650 that was a bad deal but I risked it since it was such clear fraud (someone ordered a bunch of stuff from the ios store, I don't own a single Apple device or have an apple account, and the email address was someone else's). Luckily it went through the second time and I got the money back but if that's what counts for "consumer protection" I'll go for EU laws in future, thanks.

Why are people doing business with unreputable sellers?

Oh yeah I'm totally going to buy this 3000 eurodollar PC from a random webshop I never heard from!

Moronic.

In fact this is how Amazon got big in the first place: it was a business customers could trust.

Grandiose judgment.

If there are 12 sellers, and some claim to be from your country (but you won't find the truth out until you buy), and some are clearly from China, and all have few or no recommendations, and the product isn't available locally to you... how do you determine "unreputable"?

"Reputable" is, and always has been (since at least 1750 BCE), a trust call. It is easier than ever before to appear to be reputable - the business you are buying from may be nothing more than one of many fronts for a business. If it's an older, known brand, it may have been bought recently and squeezed for profit extraction.

You should include India’s UPI (Unified Payments Interface). It is interesting and should fit in your comparison/references.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Unified_Payments_Interface

That, and the emerging pan EU payment proposals which will possibly die on "mine is better" competitive tensions.

Visa actually charges a smaller fee than pix, however its payments (almost all) require the ability to charge back. Banks processing American payments charge a few percent "for" chargeback etc. insurance, but the infrastructure could be used for similar digital cash (without any reversals), though I doubt it'll change any time soon.

Square fees are absurd.

I refuse to do business with businesses operating Square terminals.

The US was the only example given where you can reverse a transaction later.

If you use systems in the US that do not allow chargebacks you can do so for no fee. And a 5 minute delay.

When does the USA catch up?

I live in the US and haven't used cash to pay for anything in years.

I am somewhat amazed/amused by the expansion of "cash discount" at registers here. For places that are mom-and-pop or small-business, they are increasingly likely to give you a break on the price in exchange for not using your card. This makes sense with the economy and the increasing transaction fees and risks. It also makes me wonder if businesses are more likely to do things under the table now. I don't know, but it's induced me to carry around a wallet full of cash so that I can pay less for meals and laundry. I feel like I'm really doing them a favor with this gesture.

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