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Comment by jordwest | Hacker News Reader

I’ve been on several silent retreats now and one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary.

Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety - fear of looking weird or of making the other person uncomfortable.

Nowadays I rarely speak when I feel that pressure and paradoxically it has led to far deeper relationships and more interesting conversations.

It seems that the topics that come up when theres a pressure to fill the silence are the most mundane. Deeper connection seems to happen in the silences, or rather mutual comfort with silence.

Another way I could describe it is it feels almost as if there’s a fear of really being seen in silence that the surface level conversation manages to keep at bay.

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I've done silent retreats as well, but I'm not a big fan. I live on my own and get plenty of silence that way. Being around other silent people was an odd experience, sort of like being on the train with people staring into space. It reminded me of being sent to Coventry. I did find it easy to communicate on silent retreat but not enjoyable. I just went off and read a book or took a walk.

Seems like you have already figured out a means that works for you. What works for some doesn't work for others. What is a problem for some, isn't a problem for others.

Sort of like how some folks say 'everyone should meditate.' Maybe that worked for them and the issues they had, and that is brilliant, but lots of people don't have that problem or that response doesn't fit them.

It's worth pointing out at least that there is a qualitative difference between silence in isolation, and being around people who are intentionally being silent.

I live in a rural area and don't get much noise at all other than wind and animal noises when I'm home alone. It is comfortable precisely because it isn't artificial. Going to a silent retreat means being around people who are intentionally suppressing their desire to speak and being expected to fit in. It is an intentional change in behavior, which starts out uncomfortable.

Yes, I couldn't have said it better. Plus the thing is that I went on the retreats to escape Christmas. So I'd go for a week or two, the first day would be everyone yapping (almost too much of the reverse), the second would be what I was after, then I got several days of this enforced silence... Until the last day.

I think some of these people were coming from noisy workplaces and homes. But I live on my own and my area is reasonably quiet (not completely peaceful, there is a lot of low level sound.) I don't have children running around. But it also reminded me of being punished as a child. Because if they couldn't catch someone at school we had to go around in silence as a punishment.

I would prefer the noises of nature. Which is precisely what I did. I headed to the local nature reserve near the retreat centre. Not noisy but somehow less prisonlike.

> What is a problem for some, isn't a problem for others.

Even often so, what might be a problem for some, will be a desirable solution for others. Cue the utilitarians...

It used to annoy me because I went on these retreats at Christmas. (Not a fan of Christmas.) Then they started going silent which was the thing I least wanted at that time of year. It brought up a lot of negative associations for me. We used to get punished at school by not being allowed to speak.

(I think a lot of folk should meditate, but I do know people who can't. I find it hard to meditate at home for reasons too long to go into.)

It sounds like it was good for you, but I would add a word of caution about 'one of the most surprising discoveries was just how much speaking is unnecessary' part.

It is easy to overdo it and torpedo relationships. Relationships are build from small interactions and when you refuse to do communication that is not strictly necessary, they just wont build. A lot of that "useless" communication has social purpose - it allows people to learn in initiate connections without putting large stakes on it. When you stop engaging, they will stop engaging and it all, well, stops.

It’s a good word of caution and to be clear I’m not suggesting intentionally going mute.

The paradox I mentioned is that not rushing to fill the silence actually allows conversation to flow more naturally. It allows time and space for something more honest to arise in the mind to say.

There are also so many other means of communication that we humans naturally have - eye contact, facial expressions, body language - that communicate far more than words can and paying attention to these can lead to very connected conversation.

I think we overemphasise words. For example, you don’t need to small talk with your dog to have a deeply meaningful connection.

The reason I jumped to fill silence before was to avoid a kind of vulnerability, to appear competent and hide my anxiety. Little did I know that that was actually preventing deeper connection.

Noawaday I end up having far more involved conversations, it’s just that the conversation no longer starts from a point of trying to fill the silence.

As much as I agree with you, I think a lot of introverts would have a different take.

Silence only works like that when all the extroverts are busy yapping away. If silence becomes trendy amongst extroverts, they will create the same pressures you temporarily found relief from.

All "no" policies (no talking, no running, etc.) eventually turn into a form of bullying (see reddit if you didn't have a childhood like that). All the interesting conversations would be "shushed" as swiftly as anywhere else with a power tripping moderator.

>If silence becomes trendy amongst extroverts

That sounds like an impossibility, unless these extroverts are communicating non-verbally. How do you do the "extro-" part of extrovertedness without talking?

Non verbal communication, physical closeness to others, clothing/make-up/hair style, messages on belongings are some more ways to express extroversion

Silence can be used to assert dominance. That's why I referenced "the rules" people might be familiar with in a school setting.

Maybe I can paint a clearer picture in your head if I asked you to imagine how silence would be used during an interrogation or by the main character of an action movie?

Silence used to be a very popular choice by previous generations of extroverts and it wasn't "relaxing". It created the very same tension that compels people to make small talk (and fools of themselves) nowadays.

>how silence would be used during an interrogation

No, not really. If anything that makes it more ambiguous, since I can imagine several different ways for silence to be used in such a scenario.

>or by the main character of an action movie

An action hero asserts dominance not by silence, but by physicality.

>Silence used to be a very popular choice by previous generations of extroverts and it wasn't "relaxing".

Was it? How do you know? Why aren't you giving those examples instead of these ones?

The problem is that there is a “yes” policy, a sort of social pressure that you must say something.

The opposite “no” policy is also not something to aspire to. Both are artificial policies.

The silent retreat simply helped me to see the “yes” policy even existed in the first place so I could start let it go.

Letting go of all policies is where the flow seems to happen.

> Without the pressure to speak amongst others, it became clear that I often said things out of anxiety

I can't go probably 100 words without saying something stupid or flat out contradictory. I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said, and wonder just what possessed me to say that and how many people I've alienated with words that I don't even believe or hold to be true!

Silence is one way to avoid making those mistakes, but that's me avoiding the problem, not actually solving it (and it would be nice to speak all the time in truth, with coherence, and consistent with what I believe), despite not having much to say in the first place, unless:

- to clear misunderstanding / requests ("Excuse me, but I think this is my seat.")

- to prevent harm / danger ("Look out!")

- civics / politeness ("Excuse me", "Good morning", "I'm fine, thank you.")

> I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said, and wonder just what possessed me to say that and how many people I've alienated with words that I don't even believe or hold to be true!

I too think back on past blunders or embarrassing moments, even from decades ago. What cured me of over-reflecting on this is to try to identify similar blunders from others. Surely over the years I can think of insensitive blunders of others and I can rarely do so.

So if I can't think anything anyone has ever blundered, apart from maybe a handful of instances, others likely can't recall my blunders. I've even brought up cringe moments to friend and they have no recollection.

In short, no one cares about what you say. Maybe at the moment they might cringe or immediately after, but your words have pretty much no impact on anyone.

Except my wife. She remembers everything offensive I have said.

> I'll think back to the conversation, realize I don't actually think or believe what I said

I can absolutely relate to this, it was a very common occurrence for me when I felt pressured to speak.

> Silence is one way to avoid making those mistakes, but that's me avoiding the problem, not actually solving it

It doesn’t have to be avoidance, it’s not a binary of either speaking a lot or not at all.

Silence (especially when the other person is comfortable with it too) gives the mind space to allow something that feels more honest and truthful to arise.

The problem is that most people feel a kind of anxiety when nothing is being said, and if you’re sensitive you might subconsciously pick up on this (in yourself or the other) and then feel the need to say something to end the awkwardness.

My meditation teacher had an interesting journalling technique: don‘t write a single line until you know that what you’re writing is absolutely true.

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