Comment by danudey | Hacker News Reader

Comment by danudey | Hacker News Reader

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Or come to downtown Vancouver. I live in a small apartment, but within four blocks I have a community centre with gym, a pharmacy, a post office, a grocery store, a small bakery, the best liquor store in the city, three banks, a hot pot restaurant, a physiotherapist/massage therapist office, a vet, a dispensary, multiple hairdressers, an optometrist, several restaurants, two places to get gelato, a public plaza with a weekly farmer's market, a walking/cycling route along the waterfront, a car wash, a sports bar with arcade machines, skeeball, and pinball, an enclosed pollinator meadow, a science museum/IMAX theatre, two separate public "subway" lines (though one is elevated and one is below-grade), and two private but inexpensive water taxi services.

I can leave my house at 6 AM and go get fresh bread or baked goods and go sit by the water, or I can leave the house at 7 AM to get groceries if I'm out of something and be back by 7:10.

American cities don't want this because having a huge empty house with a huge empty yard and having to drive 90 minutes to get to work or 30 minutes to get groceries is the American Dream and no one who's been sold this dream wants to believe that there are so many better and more efficient ways to live.

It's because living in downtown Vancouver is expensive. Your rent probably comes close to covering the mortgage on one of those huge empty houses in the suburbs. That fresh baked good is probably ~$4 while the equivalent at Walmart is $1. No doubt it's a great lifestyle for well off DINKs. A lot harder to make it work for a family of 5 on 50k a year.

I don't think there really _is_ an equivalent at Walmart?

Walmart bakes fresh bread too. I get it Walmart sucks but they do have everything that a normal supermarket has, including fresh hot food, bakery, deli.

Yeah, something that bothers me is that there is such a tradeoff between affordability and walkabiliy. Most of the walkable cities/towns I would imagine being able to afford living in later in life I would imagine will no longer be affordable when I eventually make money (even on a dual income). Granted, I also don't want to live in dense areas but also want walkability.

I can find affordable walkability across the US - if we define affordability as "not that much more expensive than the new McMansions outside of the smallish town" - the usual downside is you have to accept whatever that small town offers in its two mile radius.

You're not getting affordable NYC or SF.

It shouldn’t be, and certainly doesn’t have to be. Logically it should be cheaper to live in an apartment than an entire house - obviously.

Suburbs are subsidized by economic centres. And the state of affairs in North America - Vancouver included - is we’re not building housing to match demand. That’s true purely in terms of individual units but it’s also true for types of units. Like apartments that aren’t luxury units, but that can fit a family. They don’t build those anymore because city council makes it completely unprofitable for developers.

If you think that apartment living is inherently more expensive I’m sorry to tell you that you have it completely backwards.

I would suggest that if every practical example contradicts your logic it is your logic that is wrong.

This 20-minute video argues that downtowns subsidize suburbs: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Q1G3D55LD-E. I found the arguments pretty persuasive. I'd love to hear counterpoints to them, though.

While you are correct about Vancouver downtown, once you get o suburbs like Langley, Coquitlam, they are no different that what you are calling out American cities for.

If we limit this to downtowns, there are several cities in America that are similar (Boston, Seattle, SF, SanDiego, Austin, NYC to name a few).

I think OP must be in their early 20s and has not experienced much of life yet.

And there's nothing wrong with that.

That would imply they created their hacker news account when they were 3-8 years old. Seems unlikely.

Its more likely that they simply value all the convenience they listed over having their own backyard, larger living space, living in a quiet safe neighborhood for kids to run around in, and being surrounded by nature.

> there are several cities in America that are similar (Boston, Seattle, SF, SanDiego, Austin, NYC to name a few).

Worth noting the US does not have a single city in the top 20 worlds most livable. Honolulu is #25, Atlanta gets #35

That tells you something.

Yes, it tells me the methodology is biased.

Hahaha. Absolutely on point. Don’t like the outcome? Methodology is bad.

Never mind this has been around for decades.

It actually makes perfect sense. In every metric that impacts a persons everyday life the us is almost always dead last among OECD countries. So of course the cites are too.

As someone who lives in Atlanta I can't imagine any way it's the second most livable city in the country.

Honolulu and Atlanta are the most livable cities in the US? Give me a break. It doesn't pass the smell test at all. The methodology is obviously biased. No matter if it has been around for years or not.

It tells me the way they measure 'livable' is wrong. Given the choice, most people would choose to be in any one of those over where ever they are now, and the cities on 'most livable' lists.

Those top 20 livable lists are always pretty narrowly defined though. They’ll mention some pricey cities in Switzerland for sure, and for forget the poor slouches that have to commute into Bern from Freiburg.

> They’ll mention some pricey cities in Switzerland

The thing is that these cities aren't pricy for swiss people, with a swiss pay-cheque (err, direct bank-to-bank money transmit). It's all a result of decades long higher inflation there, that now has this extreme price difference. And with prices did their wages increase ... but not yours, visiting Switzerland. At least the country is so small you can just drive through. You don't need to go into one of their supermarket and see that all the stuff is 2x as costly as north, east, west or south of it ...

But yeah, prices play probably a huge role in this "livability" index.

Zürich (Zurich) is at place 3, while Wien (Vienna) is at 2. And I guess this has something to do with the spectacular low flat rents in Wien. They have lots of non-profit cooperatives that own the houses and take rent so that they can refurbish the houses and build new ones (1/4 of all flats in Austria is build by such cooperatives). All over Austria, 16% of all flats/houses are owned by them. But I guess in Wien it's even higher.

There are comparison sites that say that in München (Munich) you pay in average 1249 € for rent, while in Wien it is 872 €. Okay, I select the most expensive german town, so maybe this is rigged. But even with capital vs. capital Wien is cheaper.

https://stadtkosten.de/vergleich/munchen-vs-wien

https://stadtkosten.de/vergleich/berlin-vs-wien

The nicest town isn't "livable" if people can't live there because it's only for DINKS.

Those deals are only for locals though. If you move to Switzerland you need to pay. Actually, the same is true of any place with any kind of public housing or rent control, it’s a sticky advantage. Having been subjected to the Swiss rental market before, it is stressful for outsiders.

I wonder if the USA will go down the same route eventually.

How'd you measure 'livable'? 1. income, 2-n crickets?

That isn’t anywhere close to the definition of livable though

Coquitlam is slightly better than American suburbia, I had plenty of parks and restaurants in walking distance, there’s skytrain and BRT now too

One key difference that jumps out at me between various cities in Japan and Vancouver is that the COL seems significantly better in Japan. When I visited Vancouver I couldn't afford to stay in or even near the city, I had to find a place about 20 minutes away and even then it was pricey. Whereas in Japan I had no problem finding affordable stays in city centers in all of the major cities I visited, including Tokyo.

I will admit my ignorance here however and acknowledge there are likely myriad other variables at play here that I'm not considering.

As a visitor, it's probably impossible to know the real cost of living is in different areas, because you're not employed locally, paid local wages, or paying rent and utilities. You are a foreigner with foreign money staying in hotels.

Affordable to you or affordable to the locals? The yen has devalued a lot in the past decade or so, giving foreigners a lot more spending power in Japan and causing the current tourism boom and backlash.

The weak yen has certainly made Japan feel much cheaper for foreign visitors in recent years. But even before that, the general price level was lower than in many Western cities.

Also, if you're trying to save money as a local, moving just 3–4 train stops away often makes a noticeable difference in rent or hotel prices.

Still affordable to locals. The yen has devalued, and the cost of mansions (condos) have gone up, but single family homes, small apartments, etc are still similarly priced to buy, and rent is generally stable. A major difference is that if you are OK with a tiny apartment, you can get one, and it'll be something you can pay.

You can definitely see affects of the poor economy lately (lots of pawn shops popping up, replacing expensive cafes/restaurants), but housing is still reasonable for now.

Affordable to everyone.

Plenty of American cities have this. I have three big grocery stores within a 2-7 minute walk. Myriad restaurants, bakeries, and cafes literally on the same block and within walking distance of me.

Vancouver is great, just wanted to call out the bias and massive overgeneralization in your statement.

What a shame you don’t have good public transit, horrible crime and pollution, poor schools and a police force that is actively against you.

The US does not have a single city in the top 20 worlds most livable for a reason. (Many, actually)

And yet many people continue to choose to live in the US or actively try to immigrate here. "Most livable" is highly subjective and such rankings are but one lens to evaluate where to live.

Unfortunately there is no such thing as utopia and there are always pros and cons.

It's a big country. Even today there are wonderful places to live in the USA, and also terrible places.

Absolutely. And even the wonderful places don’t make the top 20 in the world.

> Plenty of American cities have this. I have three big grocery stores...

Yeah this is precisely the exact opposite of what the article is talking about.

I live in Ballard Seattle, we have most of that except the hot pot place (we are getting a Korean BBQ someday soon though). Ok, no imax (you have to take the bus to Seattle center for that). And…no subway-like mass transit until 2065 it seems.

But you can get that in the states, you just need to pay for it, although the prices are something Vancouverites can surely emphasize with. And frankly, Vancouver area has some wicked unhappy commute opportunities as well.

The nice thing about living in China was that it was easy and cheap to live urban.

> The nice thing about living in China was that it was easy and cheap to live urban.

It is not that cheap when you adjust for the average hourly salary.

and imported goods are disproportionly expensive when you need them

It really isn’t that bad even if you do adjust for local salaries, but only to a point. Still have lots of people commuting in from the suburbs and that can be a brutal 2 hour commute each way.

America's greatest achievement is to last as long as it has while inverting all common sense. What is the fatal seed, I often wonder. I think this article suggests what it is. The role of the car in its fabric suggests it's hyper-individualism: a myth that the more untethered the self it, the more it will thrive. Hogwash

Probably goes back to the Roman idea of ownership + dominion; you're legally allowed to neglect your property. Compare this with some American tribes, during the same time period, where property ownership was shared and based on who were the best stewards of the land (neglect your space, and you lose standing in the community).

I live in a US city.

I have a nature area, gym, pharmacy, grocery store, numerous restaurants, bar, and a bunch of other amenities you just listed. I live basically on the rail line so I can get to the rest of the city in 30 minutes (with more of said amenities) and am at the intersection of two major highways which means I have even more travel options. I'm 2 train stops from a smaller downtown which has every botique shop you can imagine.

I do live in a place that was specifically designed for this but these places are designed and aren't that unheard of in US cities. When I lived in the suburbs I had similar options a few minutes walk from my house.

I live in an American city. I have a yard large enough to play frisbee with my dog. I walk downstairs to go to work. I can walk to a good taqueria and take pole dancing classes a few doors up (someday). There is an evil bank that I could walk to but don't. Cafe, Thai, Soul Food, Vietnamese, Pizza. Closer than all of the walking distance I mentioned is light rail that goes downtown and further. Someday it might even go to Vancouver (the other one sadly :( )

> Or come to downtown Vancouver

In the last ~20 years Vancouver has almost always been the number one or number two worlds most livable city, so this makes perfect sense.

Vancouver dream, not achievable with a median income

America is too big to compare it with one single city of Canada.

Canada wins either way. You can notice this on reddit discussions too - they are absolutely upset about the orange king. And that motivates Canadians to do better than Americans now - after all you don't want the orange king to be able to ruin Canada here.

The single most frustrating thing about being in Canada is they can't even work out how to use their current grievances to deal with, you know, getting out of our own way like the crazy inter provincial trade restrictions. And yet the complex remains.

One of the insane aspects of this is it's genuinely easier to deal with foreign countries than other parts of the same country . . . but I digress.

Vancouver is SF-level drug disorder paired with Detroit salaries, in no way is it more "livable" than a nice US suburb.

99% of Vancouver by area does not have anything resembling 'SF level drug disorder', and if your 'nice US suburb' didn't just punt all of its fucking problems into its nearest downtown, it too would have an East Hastings, or three.

It probably has a lower homicide rate (and a vastly lower vehicular homicide rate) per capita than your 'nice US suburb'.

That same 'nice US suburb' is also, for some reason, packed to the gills with terrified people who have an inexplicable desire to own guns for 'self-defense'. Self-defense from what..?

Having been to quite a number of what I would call 'nice US suburbs', and knowing people from them, a significant fraction of them act like they are living in some lawless Mad Max hellscape. How do you square this circle?

This makes me think you haven't spent time in any of these cities.

Are you implying “nice” US suburbs don’t have drug disorders?

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