Is there such thing as a palm-sized mobile PC that can just run a desktop Linux distribution (or Windows for that matter) that supports mobile features (calling, SMS, and data)? Even if it has rough edges or compromises?
PinePhone specs on table are old. They're currently 3GB RAM and 32GB eMMC at 200 USD for package including hub.
Also, PinePhone is so much slower than Librem 5, which in practice feels closer to the (now discontinued) PinePhone Pro. Their specs only seem similar on paper, and only if you don't dig into the details. Though of course, Librem 5 being a 2019 design isn't a speed demon these days either - but I'm still using one and it's manageable.
They're the same specs. Pinephone Pro has more cores, ram, and storage.
> Their specs only seem similar on paper, and only if you don't dig into the details.
What do you mean?
https://xff.cz/dl/tmp/photo-20260806-013112002.mkv (I guess I try hard enough, perfectly servicable with a single core at 648 MHz, barely scratching it at 10-20% CPU time used)
It would be a bit ridiculous if it was not, given what UIs/games people run on 50MHz 486 if like 40-80x faster phone could not move some pixels around smoothly at 60fps.
> run a desktop Linux distribution (or Windows for that matter) that supports mobile features (calling, SMS, and data)?
The above use ARM SoCs. Palm-sized x86 with cell modem? Doubt it.
I may be able to tolerate the speed because of how I used my netbook many years ago. Windows XP was completely useless because of how laggy the GUI was. Archlinux with i3 and a focus on using the shell (e.g. hardly ever touched a file manager) with a very light terminal (urxvt; others like gnome-terminal were too heavy) and other very light apps made it very responsive. I've kept that habit of a core set of light programs even on desktop computers. On the PPP, SXMO with sway WM/composer, foot terminal, and wvkbd as a keyboard is very responsive, too. The only gripe I have speed-wise is that makepkg (an archlinux script) is weirdly slow to start up.
Maybe GUIs that have animations are too laggy to be useful; I haven't tried. The eMMC is likely faster than your microSD if the disk is the problem, though I'm on a microSD without issue.
They deliver beyond that too, with support for Alt-DP over USB-C for instance, open schematics, parts obtainable from independent distributors of electronic components, available detailed datasheets, and external batteries that can be hot-swappable (at least on PPP, haven't checked the others).
I respectfully disagree. Pine's MO was basically "create hardware and hope people create software for it". A bit tongue in cheek, but that's it. Which is fine as long as they're up front about it, which they are.
But in order for this to work, a community needs to form around the device. Pine doesn't have to be the ones to manage it, and some would say it's better if they don't, but they're surely a big part of it if for no other reason than they're the makers of the hardware. The infant PP community was doing quite fine until they announced the PPP and confused the hell out of everything. Couple that with some seriously brain dead choices (IMHO) around booting and charging, led to them not only torpedoing the pro but sinking the original PP as well. Probably in no small part because they split what little community had formed.
The pro was obviously rushed. I personally think they saw an easy way to grab some quick cash and took it.
The strategy, "create hardware and hope people create software for it," is valid too.
I think both sides maybe overestimate the other. People state the above like a complaint that they don't make themselves responsible for the code, but maybe that's their limit of what they can do. People tend to think of companies like things that can do anything with unlimited resources, but just like people they can have limits. In general, the posture, "I don't like this company for X reason, so I'll find another," is valid and good, but when you only have 2 suppliers... maybe a little more tolerance is needed to get your goal, the product.
They may have overestimated the abilities of the market too. It's tiny and part of the appeal is being able to treat your phone the same as your computer. A good part of the market is likely going to be people whose programming experience may be limited to computers with a BIOS, native compiles, etc. I took a bit to understand the boot process in detail (how it differs from a computer). Crucial details are spread across websites and blogs. There are unique tedious challenges too like needing a virtual keyboard in initramfs. Needing to cross-compile can involve a lot of details. On and off, I was/is looking at the battery driver to add hot-swapping support. That also involves learning a lot of things on multiple levels. You want to pull people that can quickly write camera drivers from this. Also not many people have all that much free time outside of work. A lot of patience is needed here, too.
Megous was talking about there being no lack of hand-holding. I'm sure everyone appreciates it (I appreciate it), but the gap can be wide.
A lot of momentum was being lost before LLMs even came into the picture, improved, and gained momentum for coding agents, etc. If the PPP had been released e.g. this year, things would likely be different.
> The pro was obviously rushed. I personally think they saw an easy way to grab some quick cash and took it.
Yeah, I've noticed details on the PPP. In their defense, it's supposed to be the explorer edition, not the final product. Also, as I understand, the PP and PPP are subsidized by Pine64, so I wouldn't see it as greediness, but rather desperation.
The Librem 5 even goes way beyond that - ECAD and MCAD designs are available on a free license as well: https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/hw/l5-schematic & https://source.puri.sm/Librem5/hw/3D_designs
I haven't heard much bad about Purism. I was always more on the Pine side.
A quick search online didn't find anything. Can you give me a quick breakdown or link?
That's surprising. They burned through a ton of goodwill by holding many people's money for many years, while being non-responsive to depositors, refusing refunds if they did respond, and so on. A lot of ink and footage has been spilled over it. Their laptop effort seems to have evolved into something almost reasonably non-scummy, but the Librem 5 put a lot of people off.
Current complaints, from what is (by all appearances) a tiny user base, about the state of the device and its lack of usefulness are also common enough, e.g.:
https://old.reddit.com/r/Purism/comments/1foblyu/daily_drivi...?
https://forums.puri.sm/t/im-giving-up-on-the-librem-5/18399/...
The more-viable alternatives are not without their own tradeoffs, but they are at least actually viable for normal people. I can't see putting family members on a Librem 5 or a PinePhone (much less a PinePhone Pro) without it being an absolute train wreck of a time for anyone but the most extremely basic and patient user.
Even their most prolific and downright stubborn true believer of a booster on HN admits he has to disable JS to load a number of web pages, given how anemic the SoC is. As others have pointed out it would have been a midrange Android chipset well over a decade ago. How exactly that works when one needs to use a site requiring JS to function has me feeling like I'm daily driving Nokia N-series tablets in the late 2000s again, except Nokia tablets were somehow a more polished experience two decades ago than one gets today out of either the Librem 5 of PinePhone due to the lack of real manufacturer and community support.
We need a viable Linux slab with a radio, and I want one to exist. It'd be nice if it was fully free of proprietary device blobs and was reasonably power efficient, but that's currently a fantasy completely out of touch with the state of available radios. I would carry my Linux ThinkPad with a built-in cellular radio or an external hotspot everywhere before it would make sense for me to try to pretend the PinePhone or Librem 5 meet even a basline level of utility value.
For someone who wants to check simple IMAP email, send and receive SMS messages and load basic websites, and are satisfied with poor camera performance, size, weight, battery life, and durability, while feeling good about the hardware they run (even if its hardware and software security is poor), then they may be quite happy with it.
The PinePhone (Pro) is there. They work as a laptop replacement. Their problem is more on working as a phone. There's even a repo out there to turn the touchscreen into a touchpad. With a bluetooth keyboard, it's basically a laptop.
> Even their most prolific and downright stubborn true believer of a booster on HN admits he has to disable JS to load a number of web pages
YouTube works on the PPP. If YouTube works, likely any JS works. Google Maps on Firefox also works.
You: We're there. It's a bad phone. This thing works as a laptop replacement. You'll even be able to use it as a trackpad some day!
This reads like satire. You guys are so out of touch with consumer expectations that you can't even string together a coherent argument in favor of these devices you so love.
Even if it was a viable phone, are we really calling mid-tier 2016 performance, from a device which was discontinued due to being under-supported by its manufacturer and dev community, as being "there"?
We are most certainly not "there".
On the JS, a strident supporter is saying he has to disable JS. Convince him his experience isn't real, not me.
You:
>> I would genuinely carry my Linux ThinkPad with a cellular radio everywhere before [..] PinePhone or Librem 5
If you're thinking of M.2 modems, they generally can't do calls AFAIK. A ThinkPad isn't really going to serve you as a phone...
But you're making my point for me: that's how bad they are as phones.
A laptop with an iffy phone situation would at least be a highly useful laptop, if nothing else.
A PinePhone or Librem 5 is just kind of meh-to-bad at almost everything.
Of course I knew that the Librem5 existed, but at the time I was thrown off by the price and the smell of "impending shitstorm" the device reeked of. Afterwards, I was too deep into the Pine side of things to pay attention to what was going on over at the Librem side.
It's sad that these two devices have derailed open phones so much. Obviously there's a ton of things to figure out, radio chief among them. But I fear that the corporations have learned from what happened during the "PC compatible" era of computing and openness will be a thing of the past.
I hope I'm wrong about that.
Agreed. Those two have made such a mess of things that I think if something interesting does sprout up, it'll come from somewhere else.
I think one issue is that the hard-liners who are willing to make the compromises necessary to daily drive one of these things as an actual phone aren't interested in any solution unless it's fully open, and certified as such. Which I get, but desktop Linux more or less evolved on hardware containing significant proprietary blobs and closed code, and at many levels. It wasn't perfect, but the OS had room to mature on genuinely good and useful hardware.
Instead, these two companies are trying to push molasses up a sandy hill. Virtuous though it may be, it seems kind of doomed to failure, and this doesn't feel like one of those situations where the glory is in the trying.
Eschewing genuinely excellent hardware because it's imperfect, all while running a hot mess of an operating system, also strikes me as a losing strategy.
Give me a modern SoC with modern radios, strong contemporary security features, all running a well-supported distro, and I'd be there in a heartbeat, despite whatever misgivings I held about the non-FSF-approved nature of the hardware, because that's exactly my current desktop, laptop, and server computing situation (modern security features aside). If I saw a viable open phone hardware project happening I would be happy to support it, but for some people there's a real "you are either with us, or against us" mentality about it, and if someone's going to make me choose...
> I fear that the corporations have learned from what happened during the "PC compatible" era of computing and openness will be a thing of the past.
We both hope you're wrong, but some things certainly seem to be trending that way, and quickly.
At that point I think I might get one of those and use them as an everyday computing device (with Waydroid for Android apps) plus a small light Android phone for calling, tethering and locked down apps that do not work otherwise.
M.2 modems generally can't do calls nor SMS, though. It's just data, AFAIK.
It's difficult to just do things. Even windows feels more "free." Phone OSes are built like prisons.
Ideally Android would let you drop into a real shell, without having to deal with android sandboxing.
Regardless, I use termux and tasker to get my automations done.
And also malware.
That blast radius coupled with (non-Android) Linux's atrocious security is a far worse option
AUR isn't a traditional repository but more functions like a paste bin for package build scripts you have to go out of your way to enable and use at your own risk. It is not how actual Linux repositories work which are way more safe than google or even apple app store.
Probably because of how people submit directly to the commercial app stores and the app store staff are expected to accept them as long as no malware or other problems are detected. Such problems are generally explicitly listed on Terms of Service and app submitters may be able to dispute rejections. Meaning problems generally need to be concrete and justifiable. Also, because of the sheer number, problems are likely scanned for, rather than each app being personally considered by a developer.
FOSS distro package repo maintainers generally don't have any such pressures. They get their absolute pick of what to include from the wild, only taking as much as they're able to handle.
Also, distro repo maintainers handle the building from the source code themselves, while app store apps are closed source to the app stores. Their ability to inspect apps is very limited.
It's a pretty big sandbox in my experience.
How easy it is to do an equivalent thing on Android?
The neat thing about non-Android phones with respect to what you mention is that you can do those things just like how you would on any other computer, without having to worry about Android workarounds that may one day stop working via an update.