The Psychedelic Toad of the Sonoran Desert | Hacker News Reader

The Psychedelic Toad of the Sonoran Desert

en.wikipedia.org

Hamilton's Pharmacopia covers this topic, including an interview with the supposed author, then later corrected, then the true author revealed. Definitely worth checking out.

I think this is the full episode, not sure what regions it's available but I could see it here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAg5kAcw-TA

Every time I find one of these in my backyard with my dog, I have to spray my dog’s mouth out with the hose for 5 minutes. Psychedelic, but also very toxic.

Reminds me of the datura all over my yard. I keep chopping them down (while wearing gloves) but they keep coming back.

They're pretty but definitely a "look, don't eat" plant.

The datura trip reports on Erowid were my favorite. Such a weird plant.

They’re for sure a good reminder not to fuck with datura, ever.

Isn't the root the harmful part?

Just my local regular non hallucinogenic toads makes dogs drewl like crazy if they try to catch on (or more commonly find a toad chip road kill on the gravel roads)

Yeah, "psychedelic toad" sounds a lot more whimsical until you actually live somewhere they show up in the backyard

Have any studies been done on this particular psychedelic? I'm curious.

A couple groups are trying to commercialize it. There have been some trials, but they're all relatively limited by depression trial standards. Double-blind is impossible because the participants know 100% if they've received it or not. Someone volunteering to sign up for a depression study to receive psychedelic drugs is probably a believer that they work, so the placebo groups end up disappointed and the active groups are happy they got assigned the psychedelic they signed up.

One of the latest studies: https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/...

They followed participants for 8 days, which is pretty disappointing. They really need to follow people for several months to see if anything holds or if it's a short-term placebo effect that wears off.

This seems like one of those areas where "double-blind randomized trial" sounds much cleaner on paper than it actually is. If nearly everyone can tell whether they got the drug, expectancy becomes a pretty nasty confound

It's 5-MeO-DMT, better to synthesize it than to exploit the toads for it though.

https://youtu.be/qipKKBmY_LQ

In the DMT world, carts are being sold known as Toad with the 5-MeO-DMT. Lots of very unhappy customers when they are not expecting it.

I seriously don't know who would be unhappy about it. Pure 5-meo is a more reliable experience and no endangered toads need to be harmed. I don't know that one would even be able to liquify straight bufo properly to put in a cart for one...also pure 5-meo is maybe 3-5x more potent per weight so that probably makes it all easier too. Anyone pulling the "butttt it's unnaturalllll" card on this one is a fool.

I read that as they were expecting a “regular” N,N-DMT vape cart but instead are getting 5-MeO-DMT.

Is anyone even getting it from toads anymore? 20 years ago it was cheap to synthesize and get from the research chemical market along with the 2Cs and friends. I haven’t done any drugs in a decade so I don’t know how hard it is to get now but I doubt an enterprising internet sleuth would have a hard time finding a source.

I wish this was true in the Bay Area. 5-MeO-DMT does not seem to be available and it’s supposedly a unique experience.

Start going to festivals?

You can just order domestic US.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/5-MeO-DMT has some references and the "further reading" links might have way more

plenty of scientific and not-really-scientific links available at erowid for 5-meo-dmt

https://www.erowid.org/chemicals/5meo_dmt/5meo_dmt.shtml

scientific references specifically at https://www.erowid.org/references/refs.php?S=5meo_dmt

Most recent I know of: https://www.psychiatrictimes.com/view/blp-003-for-treatment-...

Mebufotenin is 5-MeO-DMT

2019. "A forensic report concluded that the mix of the venom extracted from the toad and the cocaine had a deadly effect on Jose Luis Abad. The photographer suffered a stroke after taking the drug on a shamanic ritual gone wrong and was dead within minutes"

https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2020/06/03/spains-mo...

https://www.theolivepress.es/spain-news/2023/05/09/court-dro...

Spread across 8 billions and any intense activity will have many associated deaths. Care to know how many people die yearly from ie hiking? Estimates are in low thousands. Some are from heart attacks.

And don't get me started with sexual activities...

Thanks for warning about the dangers of hiking or having sex, but just because people can die by multiple reasons does not make this toxin one inch safer.

If the pros are discussed, the cons should be discussed also.

The number of people that has sexual activities repeatedly for three decades without dying is still much bigger than the number of people that licks toads repeatedly for three years without dying. One activity has been much more tested than the other.

I've tried this before and it was an incredibly profound experience. Happy to answer questions if folks have any.

Were there long term positive (or negative for that matter) after effects that persisted either for some time or set a new baseline for you?

Yeah see my comment above. Life felt like I was in a dream state after. Still does if I drop back into that place and let go of the narratives of modern life. It really gives me a new perspective on "maya" as the hindus refer to it as. The "veil of illusion" that we find ourselves in. Not at all to say that I'm disengaged or disconnected. I still live a full and happy life. But I don't take it seriously anymore.

I'm reminded of Oscar Wilde's quote > Life is too important to be taken seriously.

Have you compared it to the synthetic 5-MeO-DMT experience and if so, is there a noticeable difference in your experience?

i have been fortunate enough to, identical experience

I have not but I would be very curious to see if there is any!

Did it actually change anything for you long-term or was it mostly profound while it was happening?

Yes it fundamentally changed the way I see and show up in the world. The best way I could describe it is a sense of deep peace knowing that this is all a lovely dream, and that one day "I" will return to the source.

Have you ever tried mushrooms? If so, can you compare the experiences?

One is eternity compressed into five minutes; the other is relatively mild even at higher doses in comparison (though of course a powerful experience in its own right).

Suspect that for many 5-MEO is something you do once in a lifetime. It's not necessary to do it on a regular basis, and you'll know why after you try it for the first time :)

Very well put. No intention of dipping back in again.

As Alan Watts put, "These things are like a telephone conversation with god. Once you get the message, hang up the phone and don't pick it up again"

Yes plenty.

A comparison might be (for me at least) mushrooms is akin to going to an art gallery, and 5-meo is like going very deep (instantly) into a sensory-deprivation flotation tank.

An art gallery in the sense that there's a lot going on, there's a lot to interpret and you're very aware of the things that are around you. Those things have a strong ability to move you, provide insight, "downloads", intepretations. It can also be (not necessarily) very social as well. It's not a perfect metaphor because it doesn't capture all the other ways mushrooms can influence you, but for the sake of this analogy haha.

A flotation tank because… well for me everything ceased to exist. There was no time, no self, no light, no thought, no sensations. Nothing. Just an experience that merged with darkness and then there was simply just an awareness. I remember "being" in a place of complete darkness (darkness isn't even the right word because it's beyond the idea of darkness even existing). Beyond concepts and words and thoughts. And the darkness was truly "beautiful". It felt like it was silently humming, vibrating even. It felt primordial, as if it was pregnant with all possible creation. And yet utterly void.

Truly a surreal experience and not at ALL the same thing!

Completely fascinating video on this topic just recently:

https://www.wsj.com/video/the-race-to-commercialize-the-worl...

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https://archive.org/details/toad_20230808/page/n2/mode/1up link to the digitized scan

Recently published, curious if anyone has read it: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/735472/the-ego-trip...

He wrote a nice New Yorker article a few years ago:

https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2022/03/28/the-pied-piper...

How a tiny self-published pamphlet apparently created a whole practice that was later documented as if it had some deeper historical tradition behind it

I'm guessing this is here because it was featured on an episode of Beef Season 2 from Netflix.

Find your soulmate, Homer!

Can we please leave the fucking toads alone?

This is an endangered species getting massively abused by the wellness "shaman" industry. It fucking sucks. Just use synthetic 5me0-dmt if you really must do a goofy vision quest larp.

Hmm. I am all for leaving animals alone, but their Wikipedia page says their status is “secure” and of “least concern”.

So yeah, let the frogs be, but I don’t think we should invent (hallucinate, in this case, perhaps?) reasons why…

okay maybe i was wrong about them being technically endangered, i misread that somewhere. Still doesn't change the fact that we shouldn't be abusing animals to have pseudo-intellectual psychedelic experiences.

Your may have been thinking of peyote, which is somewhat endangered, and widely poached.

HAMILTON,BUFOTENINE YOU NEED TO MAKE A VIDEO. xD

Anyone watch Hamiltons pharmacopeia

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vAg5kAcw-TA

I do.

People really overthink drugs.

You don't need anything more than psilocybin and some weed from time to time.

Anything else is just unnecessary noise and introduces vulnerabilities to your Fortress of Mind.

Backdoor here, trapdoor here, tunnel there. Before you know it, your psyche collapses under all the brain neuroplasticity. Mind cannot form any shape at all.

Truly terrible thought so be careful my people. Don't malleableize yourself into a goo.

I’ve used both a lot.

It’s inaccurate to frame weed and psilo as “necessary”.

YMMV by person, their neurochemistry, and their living environment. I need a stimulant for my specific biology to adapt to modern expectations.

FYI, you're arguing with a petty psychopath who will threaten your life when she inevidibly loses an argument because the facts and evidence are not on her side.

I’m genuinely interested to know more about this lore you seem to possess.

Also, you’re nerd-famous, this is the highlight of my week.

hmmm; I really don’t feel like I need weed or shrooms from time to time. I’m ok the way I am.

The part I'm struggling with is where "neuroplasticity" turns into "your psyche collapses". That sounds more like a metaphor than an actual mechanism

You don't need any of them. And that's your personal taste and isn't universal.

If you've only experienced those two then it's like you're sticking to black and white when there's a whole spectrum of other colours out there you're just discarding with no particularly good rationale. Plus you can screw yourself up with psilocybin and weed perfectly adequately.

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