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Comment by gomoboo | Hacker News Reader

I grew up in another country where Jamaican patties were popular and ordering a 'beef patty' would never get you a burger patty unless you were in a burger joint. Same as in Toronto; asking for patty (or beef patty) will 99% of the time get you a Jamaican patty.

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If I got a jamaican beef patty instead of a hamburger beef patty, i think that would be close enough.

But I have serious issues with the term "sweetbreads".

>>Not being from Toronto, never in a million years would I even think of that as a visitor.

>I grew up in another country where Jamaican patties were popular [...]

Have you considered the possibility that Jamaican patties aren't universally popular and the fact that the two of you came from cities with a significant Jamaican diaspora doesn't invalidate the experience of the person who probably came from a city that didn't?

I’m from New Haven and if you went into a place and asked for a beef patty you would get a Jamaican beef patty, not a burger. It may not be everywhere, but pretty much every city I’ve lived in that is the case

If you ask for a beef patty here, the server will look confused, and then bring you a hamburger patty on a plate

Anecdote: I asked for the "mushroom burger" on their menu at an airport years ago -- I didn't want meat and it had nothing indicting meat in the listed ingredients that I checked -- and they brought me a hamburger beef patty with mushrooms on top. Imagine both of our surprises when they brought me the plate and I was like uhm I think that's another table's order? Well it turns out, at least to that restaurant (idk about the rest of the locality), that was considered a mushroom burger. Elsewhere in the same country (and even Googling it now), a mushroom burger means a vegetarian burger with a portobello mushroom or such as the "patty". Like how a salmon burger means the patty is made of salmon, or a veggie burger means the patty is made of veggies.

I sat there looking dumb and the waiter thought (like everyone here) that I was some idiot who didn't know what a burger was. Now I'm not suggesting they need to regulate what "mushroom burger" means across the locality too, but I couldn't have been the first one to get caught off-guard by this, and the whole incident never needed to happen either. At least in an airport where people from all over stop by, I seriously wouldn't think that only a racist or anti-meatatarian/anti-vegetarian dictatorship would impose some common-sense rules to prevent confusion or food/time wastage arising from cuisine-"unculturedness".

I once ordered a vegetarian burger in some kind of trivia bar of a big american city. It came with bacon... When I asked they said: "but nobody ever complained about having bacon in it". there are alternate realities out there. Even in the deepest small town I had never seen that.

A mushroom burger is a normal order at a takeaway in New Zealand: the usual beef burger, but with added mushroom.

Note that there is often a rather restricted choice for vegetarian or vegan food (unless you pick your place carefully).

If I ordered a mushroom burger (especially as my preferred “mushroom and Swiss burger”), I’d be surprised if it came without the beef patty (the burger part).

It’s not that I can’t understand that the other exists, but my brain is wired to think of mushroom as a topping/adjective and burger as the noun.

I've seen the meat version plenty of times too, it's not like I couldn't understand that either. That was the entire reason I checked the ingredients, which had never failed me until then. Restaurants normally list something about the meat if it's there... but not always.

Which I point out here because there are people saying "just check the ingredients" and, no, this clearly happened despite that.

And which I also point out because the same people arguing "just check the ingredients" would get mad (possibly even more so) if you actually agree and decide to require reliable ingredient lists.

P.S. The top result I see for "what is a mushroom burger" on Google is meatless: https://www.recipetineats.com/swiss-mushroom-burger/

I can’t think of many places in the US where “mushroom burger” doesn’t mean a beef burger with mushrooms. Maybe in a vegetation or vegan restaurant.

Now if you asked for a mushroom veggie burger, that would be different.

Perhaps you should visit more of the US, or visit different types of restaurants? Neither meaning is as dominant as you make it sound. You see both within five minute walks of each other.

Heck, the top result I get for "what is a mushroom burger" on Google right now is a meatless one: https://www.recipetineats.com/swiss-mushroom-burger/

And the top AI result is similarly about another non-veg restaurant's meatless burger.

Haha I guess we discovered the mysterious country you were referring to when you said, "Elsewhere in the same country." I wonder why you didn't want to reveal it? Could it be because you knew you were wrong, ahead of time?

I'm talking about restaurants, not SEO'd slop recipe sites on google.

> You see both within five minute walks of each other.

Provide an example, then.

Here are some real-world examples:

Red Robin's "Sauteed 'Shroom" burger: https://www.redrobin.com/menu/burgers/sauteed-shroom

Chili's mushroom swiss burger: https://www.chilis.com/menu/big-mouth-burgers/mushroom-swiss... - notice how this one doesn't say anything about a meat patty, except for the picture. That's because without some kind of qualifer, by default "burger" means a sandwich with a beef patty, everywhere in the US.

Buffalo Wild Wings mushroom swiss burger: https://www.buffalowildwings.com/menu/categories/burgers/mus... - also no mention of beef.

Those are chain restaurants which can be found throughout the US, so you can't claim this is something regional. I defy you to find a single counterexample at a restaurant like this. Certainly, this is going to be what you get at any airport restaurant.

Here's an example of how vegeterian mushroom burgers are typically listed, at https://www.barhygge.com/menus : "Mushroom-Barley Veggie Burger". Notice the "veggie". That's what will typically be specified unless you're at a vegan or vegetarian place where it's assumed.

> Haha I guess we discovered the mysterious country you were referring to when you said, "Elsewhere in the same country." I wonder why you didn't want to reveal it?

Reveal what? The country of the airport and my travel was irrelevant. You wanted to talk about the US and I talked about the US.

> Could it be because you knew you were wrong, ahead of time?

Wow, you totally caught me.

> notice how this one doesn't say anything about a meat patty, except for the picture.

Except the picture? Why the heck would I ignore the picture? Do you understand the fundamental issue here, or do you think it was that I was too stupid to look for a picture when I looked at the menu at the airport?

Since it's so difficult to comprehend: the whole problem is over whether information is communicated adequately enough that people can confidently understand what they're buying. The format of said communication, whether typewritten on a menu, imaged digitally, drawn by hand, handwritten on papyrus, engraved into a rock, or verbal from the waiter... is so clearly not the point.

> also no mention of beef.

It's literally in the photo. You seem to be really struggling to find examples where this information is actually missing. I wonder why.

> Provide an example, then.

Have you heard of Shake Shack? https://www.google.com/search?q=give+me+an+example+of+a+mush...

All of that may be true and yet it seems overly prescriptive for a state authority to determine the name of food. After all, a cheesesteak is not a steak but a sandwich. Regional variations on names are quite reasonable. On the other hand, Canadians are a prescriptive culture. In Montreal, for instance, they are very strict about street signs and so on. Perhaps it is just how things are done by that people.

> After all, a cheesesteak is not a steak but a sandwich.

I don't know if you're not seeing the obvious or deliberately ignoring it, but the rather-salient differences between those are that (a) "cheesesteak" being one word rather than two tells you it might be a different thing, and (b) "cheesesteak" (or even "cheese steak" by itself) do not carry a single universal meaning different from the rest. You know, unlike "beef patty", where even Googling it now doesn't show Jamaica in the top result.

If you want something to compare against, this is like banning people businesses from calling soymilk just "milk". Nobody minds if you sell soymilk or Jamaican beef patties. They're just asking you not to actively hijack terms that carry significantly different meaning to millions/billions of other people. It's not that hard and it's not some sort of totalitarian flex to have rules like this. With HN being what it is, they'd probably call banning that anti-veganism.

> If you want something to compare against, this is like banning people businesses from calling soymilk just "milk".

Big Dairy got to you, huh.

There’s nothing wrong with referring to other kinds of milk as milk. If anything, cow’s milk should be clearly labeled as such, if we’re following the approach of identifying ingredients properly.

How would you define milk?

Per the 1828 Webster Dictionary: an emulsion made by bruising seeds; as, the milk of almonds, produced by pounding almonds with sugar and water.

This is not the definition supporting the statement that cow milk and almond milk are both kinds of milk. Implicitely relying on different definitions inside a single statement is an example of equivocation.

When people ask for chicken do you also introduce them to your timid cousin?

Or when they ask for meat, do you also show them the meat of the latest math problem you were working on?

Just because it's in the dictionary that doesn't mean you get to ignore what most people mean by it in context.

If you are going to quote a dictionary, please first ensure you are quoting it properly and without misrepresenting the contents and b) that in cases wherein a definition has multiple potential meanings it lists the different uses from common to uncommon.

As per the actual 1828 Noah Webster's dictionary, which you can find here https://archive.org/details/noah-websters-1828-dictionary-el..., on page 7828, the definition of "Milk" is:

MILK, n. 1. A white fluid or liquor, secreted by certain glands in female animals, and drawn from the breasts for the nourishment of their young.NWAD MILK.2 2. The white juice of certain plants.NWAD MILK.3 3. Emulsion made by bruising seeds.NWAD MILK.4

And, just in case the commonality of milk being milk from a cow, see also the other shorthand definitions noted on pages 987 and 988 of the table of contents.

MILKEN, a. Consisting of milk. [Not used.] MILKER, n. One that milks. MILK-FEVER, n. A fever which accompanies the first flowing of milk in females after childbirth. MILK-HEDGE, n. A shrub growing on the Coromandel coast, containing a milky juice. MILKINESS, n. Qualities like those of milk; softness. MILK-LIVERED, a. Cowardly; timorous. MILKMAID, n. A woman that milks or is employed in the dairy. MILKMAN, n. A man that sells milk or carries milk to market. MILKPAIL, n. A pail which receives the milk drawn from cows. MILKPAN, n. A pan in which milk is set. MILKPORRIDGE, MILKPOTTAGE, n. A species of food composed of milk or milk and water, boiled with meal or flour. MILKSCORE, n. An account of milk sold or purchased in small quantities, scored or marked. MILKSOP, n. A soft, effeminate, feeble-minded man. MILK-THISTLE, n. A plant of the genus Carduus. MILKTOOTH, n. The fore tooth of a foal, which is cast within two or three years. MILK-TREFOIL, n. A plant, the cytisus. MILK-VETCH, n. A plant of the genus Astragalus. MILK-WORT, n. A plant of the genus Euphorbia; spurge. MILK-WEED, n. A plant, the Asclepias Syriaca. MILKWHITE, a. White as milk. MILKWOMAN, n. A woman that sells milk. MILKY, a. Made of milk.

Specifically note the commonality of milk dash thing when it refers to plants. Not that it's particularly relevant, aside from the actual commonly used definition of milk already provides an example of milk being commonly understood as milk. As an additional example, look to the definition of mentioning almond milk on page 2134. Specifically note that it says milk of almonds, and not just milk.

AMYGDALATE, a. [L. amygdalus, an almond.] Made of almonds. AMYGDALATE, n. An emulsion made of almonds; milk of almonds.

As you can see, I care way to much about milk.

White-ish, vaguely nutritious beverage suitable for coffee.

> Big Dairy got to you, huh.

Common sense did, not Big Dairy.

> There’s nothing wrong with referring to other kinds of milk as milk.

There very much is. For most people, if they go to a shop and ask for milk and get handed goat milk, they will get annoyed. Similarly if they ask for eggs and get handed duck eggs or quail eggs. I don't know why common sense is so lacking on this forum but this is not my opinion, this is a fact.

But yeah, if someone disagrees with you they're just Big Dairy shill. There's no other way a rational person could disagree with another.

or, just let people call things what they want, and focus on real problems instead. Even this comment as I’m typing feels like too much time committed to the subject.

> or, just let people call things what they want, and focus on real problems instead. Even this comment as I’m typing feels like too much time committed to the subject.

If a problem isn't yours that doesn't mean it's fake.

You can simply not waste your time on it, that's not other people's problem. Why should they even care that you're wasting your time? When you clearly don't care about them wasting time or money due to this stuff, you should expect zero sympathy for your own time wastage on the subject. You need to show sympathy before you receive it.

I don't think these kind of language struggles are as minor as you paint them, especially around regulation and law-making.

a well understood and unified spoken language is the keystone to a lot of human endeavor; even if the goal is a region without language barriers the bootstrap process towards that goal is accelerated by a common tongue.

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