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Comment by blackqueeriroh | Hacker News Reader

The problem is that everyone imagines some sort of just and fair arbiter of these things, when the reality is all of the social scoring and consequences and reputations rarely actually stem from one’s actions, and far more often stem from how much money someone has put in someone’s pocket, who someone knows, the color of someone’s skin, or what’s between someone’s legs.

Until we’re actually serious about treating people equitably, (not equally, as that would simply leave the lopsided power structure we have in place) we aren’t getting out of this.

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I don't understand the desire to argue against this in identity politics terms, which I assume you realize is going to be extremely divisive. There's a far more simple argument that people, independent of ideological framing, would tend to agree upon. And that's what is valuable to one person isn't valuable, to the same degree, to another. For things that are completely illegal, like murder, such a system would be pretty useless because we already have systems in place to punish that sort of behavior and defacto social scoring on it as well.

So this is going to come down to things that aren't usually illegal or 'that illegal', but otherwise affect society. So for instance one group might want to reasonably punish the directors of a company that causes emissions. Another group might want to reasonable reward the directors of a company that creates a large number of desirable jobs. And even in this one example you immediately end up with a weird scenario. Is it okay to pollute as long as you make enough jobs? Who gets to decide that?

There's no need for cartoon villainy for this to be a bad idea. Even completely well intentioned, it just doesn't work out well. And the more diverse a society, the worse it's going to work.

How do you combat review bombing or someone just being bigoted?

The same ways that you have to combat fudged scientific data and didn't-write-it authors and lazy reviewers and hate from people who are in the opposite school on the whole Alzheimer's Amyloid issue and shite-quality citatations and etc. etc. etc.?

Yes, there can be obvious patterns to money/friends/skin color/gender that should be watched out for. But if you're paying much attention to those, then your science will quickly become a mere side gig to your new Cultural Warrior job.

> The problem is that everyone imagines ...

I'd phrase it "most people want to imagine". Or will claim they want to - since not believing sounds depressing, or suggests that the person is an evildoer hoping to escape justice. (But unfortunately, people usually disagree about exactly what would be "just" or "fair". While wanting to imagine that they don't. Yes, the problem just went meta.)

> when the reality is ...

Try asking some really old folks about how much drama, inequity, and nastiness there often was in social settings where everyone was the same color and gender, nobody was notably wealthy, and nobody had any great connections. Or talk to an experienced junior high teacher. Or read some history. Humans are quite capable of dividing themselves into camps over any "differences" that they're able to perceive. Or invent, since dividing themselves into camps is often the unspoken objective.

> social scoring and consequences and reputations rarely actually stem from one’s actions

In my experience, this viewpoint is most strong in people whose actions are the most direct cause of their social issues. Almost always these people strongly refuse to admit that their actions should or are under their control. At which point others start to avoid them.

There are large scale social stratifications due to various things however individuals live in a very wide band in my experience. Some make choices that put them at the top of that band and others make choices that put them at the bottom.

Let's take two of your examples:

> how much money someone has put in someone’s pocket

> who someone knows

Careers choices directly lead to having higher income and more money. Socializing and putting effort into building a social network gives you more people to know. Both are to a decent degree under someone's control and based on their actions. You claiming otherwise is exactly proving my point on people wanting an excuse for their poor historical actions.

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