Comment by matwood | Hacker News Reader

Comment by matwood | Hacker News Reader

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> I think they should not have this power, but the agents and courts probably don't care that I think that. ...

> and about not angering the agents more than you plan to

When I was a teenager (long ago at this point), I got into an argument with a police officer over surfing in a certain area. It was pouring down rain, so he was annoyed he had to sit outside and wait for my friends and me to come to shore. Once we got in, he was telling me that he could take my surfboard and my car, and all other craziness. Being the dumb smart-ass I was at the time, I laughed and told him he was full of shit, among other things. He went to take a swing at me but his partner grabbed him.

We all go to court and the judge immediately dismisses the case against all my friends. I had a lawyer with me that I knew and he went to talk to the cop and when he came back over he goes "I don't know what you did, but that cop hates you." I get up in front the judge and he praises me for understanding the law (and I could still see the cop was visibly pissed), but then says he can't have me disrespecting and being a smart-ass to his cops and gave me community service that once completed whatever the ticket was would go away.

> but then says he can't have me disrespecting and being a smart-ass to his cops

Maybe it's just me, but I am of the exact opposite opinion. Cops have enormous power, and any misuse of it should be pushed back on hard. Cops that misuse their power should not be respected. An informed citizenry is a wonderful asset in making that power imbalance less of a problem.

Yeah, but go tell that to the judge who’s just about to slap you with a sentence.

Unless you want to fight that all the way up the judicial food chain

Absolutely. It's not worth it unless you're more principled than anyone I know at least. Instead you're left with a minor punishment and most of your faith in the justice system left behind.

There's a difference between polite pushback and being straight up disrespectful. It shouldn't matter as the cops shouldn't abuse their power and shouldn't attack people, but we live in the real world. The judge probably didn't want to have to deal with the potential future mess if op didn't learn their lesson and got beat up by a cop.

"Straight up disrespectful" can be made up to mean anything, but in general should refer to things that shouldn't bother police officers doing their job. They can get pissed off about it in their own time.

There is a general understanding that police officers deserve implicit respect while on duty, more so than random citizens, as they are representatives of the law. Swearing at a random passerby is rude but legal, swearing at a police officer is against this need for respect and is a misdemeanor in many places around the world.

It's perfectly legal in the US. In fact it's legal to lean out your window and yell at them. It's protected speech here, and for good reason. Otherwise the cops could just say your speech made them feel disrespected and you could get penalized. The first amendment in the US has been interpreted pretty broadly to protect a lot of speech that in other countries could get you fines or jailtime.

Police do need authority and respect in order to do their jobs, of course. But at the same time their position of power and their role as maintainers of public peace mean they should have a thicker skin rather than thinner. They should be able to keep their professionalism and composure in the face of adversity better than the average person, and someone being verbally disrespectful towards them is at the lower end of that.

Police officers who think their pride needs to be put first in the name of authority may be common around the world but that doesn't mean reactive cops are a good thing.

Respect has to be earned. They have done the opposite.

And then people are surprised and saddened when LEO start acting like robots and default to treating you as threat to be mitigated as much as legally allowed in context.

The parent described a story from a different reality - one where people are people, where communities have basic expectations of conduct, and authority is respected on all sides. The cop was angered and snapped (bad), but was stopped by their partner (good, and it's one of the reasons cops have partners!). The parent was a kid who behaved like an asshole in a moment, by their own admission. Plenty of teenagers act like that, it's an age-old more. The judge did not act as a proxy for the angry cop to retaliate, but instead reacted correctly by both praising the civic attitude (to the chagrin and I imagine further embarrassment of that cop), and addressing the behavior that is not welcome in a civilized community.

You can't have it both ways. You can either have civilization of people, or violent hellhole of laywers and robots. Pick one.

(And if you pick wrong, then don't complain, and by $deity, don't export these attitudes overseas, please.)

> And then people are surprised and saddened when LEO start acting like robots and default to treating you as threat to be mitigated as much as legally allowed in context.

yeah that would be pretty petty, given that most people in their lives are able to perfectly deal with such behaviour, whether it's their job or in personal life, without a judge to slap annoying people on the wrist

what is this prima donna behaviour?

it is them that need to work to deserve their uniform, they need to understand it is an honour they have to keep up, be the better person. if you can't do that, you have no job wearing that uniform.

but I guess their narcissism must feel strengthened by people like you arguing this is perfectly reasonable behaviour for officers of the law

you can have it both ways, you just need to want it

People are frequently "straight up disrespectful" to me in my work. I have to maintain professionalism and composure at all times, and if I were to suggest otherwise I'd get laughed at best. I don't see why it's hard to ask for cops to do the same. A real threat that I need to call security for is very easy to distinguish from a person just being an asshole.

> The parent described a story from a different reality - one where people are people, where communities have basic expectations of conduct, and authority is respected on all sides. The cop was angered and snapped (bad), but was stopped by their partner (good, and it's one of the reasons cops have partners!). The parent was a kid who behaved like an asshole in a moment, by their own admission. Plenty of teenagers act like that, it's an age-old more. The judge did not act as a proxy for the angry cop to retaliate, but instead reacted correctly by both praising the civic attitude (to the chagrin and I imagine further embarrassment of that cop), and addressing the behavior that is not welcome in a civilized community.

So why did he not give the cop community service then?

I would argue that arbitrary authority inherently deserves no respect, and the second that authority is overstepped there should be consequences.

It's no surprise that there's so much hostility towards police in the US when they routinely abuse their authority.

If I swung at someone at my job I'd be fired. If a security guard swung at someone who was not an active threat they'd probably be fired too. We still do our jobs.

It's not respect unless it goes both ways.

> The judge probably didn't want to have to deal with the potential future mess if op didn't learn their lesson and got beat up by a cop.

A judge solving their own problems in this way is clearly abuse of power as well

Sure, I agree that we should be polite and respectful to random people, cops included, but that judge decided that it was illegal to be disrespectful to a cop, which is pretty fucked up.

If a cop demands your ID when you have no obligation to give it, your answer should be something to the effect of "I hope you get hit by the next passing 18-wheeler".

Malignant authority needs to be treated with maximal hostility. The 'lesson' you want here is completely backwards.

That answer would mean that you’re are on drugs. And your being on drugs means that the cop can request your id.

America is a free country. Everyone can ask you for everything. I can ask you for money. A cop can ask you for an id. No need to rush and provide what you were asked for. But that 18 wheeler thing is extremely counterproductive.

I said demand, not ask. Demand requires reasonable articulable suspicion of a crime.

Many cops arrest people for not providing identification when they're under no obligation to do so. Those cops should be insulted, and deserve consequences.

I see zero difference between verbal asking, verbal request and verbal demand. Probably that’s because English is not my native language. Could you please provide a sample of each one?

Your second text creates the impression that if the cop arrested you for non-compliance - then what was before was the demand. If yes, my point still stands: insulting the cop who had arrested you will not make him let you go. Probably it can only make your situation worse. Counterproductive, as was said.

No, you're right they make it intentionally vague.

Best thing to do is shut the fuck up.

Respect is earned, not given. Police in some communities are (generally) respected, but they are also (generally) professional.

When trust breaks down, it’s up to those who hold power to restore it, not those subject to power. Too often authority demands submission as a substitute for trust, and the results are predictable.

> There's a difference between polite pushback and being straight up disrespectful.

That's a distinction without a difference. Cops see any form of noncompliance as disrespectful ("contempt of cop"). You not only legally can, but absolutely should be able to tell a cop "Get fucked" to their face and walk away if they have no legal basis to detain you. The fact that in reality you will have your life ruined is a problem far worse than any "disrespect".

> disrespectful

To paraphrase a useful distinction I saw once...

Some people talk about mutual respect, but it's not mutual at all because they use a different definition on each side. They demand you "respect" the power of their position or uniform, or else they won't "respect" you as being human.

There’s no legal difference between polite pushback and disrespect. In a just world, the commenter should have had zero consequences, and the cop should have gone to prison for assault and abuse of authority.

There's a huge difference between misusing their power and not having perfect understanding of what they're allowed and not allowed to do.

I'm sure there are scenarios where the cop can confiscate the surfboard and the car. The distinction is probably somewhat vague even for highly educated lawyers, and cops cannot expected to be that.

He should have stood up for his rights, sure, but laughing in the cop's face and telling them they're full of shit is disrespectful, and at least where I live is a misdemeanor even if the original case is wrong.

As a citizen, when I have an incomplete understanding of what I'm allowed and not allowed to do I have every incentive to stay on the side of things I'm sure I am allowed to do. Just threatening to do things that you are not allowed to do has the annoying tendency of being a crime

I'm not sure how this suddenly flips for cops

And what did this judge think (not much, apparently)? Punishing you will make you respect the cops?! This idiot confuses the fear of punishment with respect. Also, does not understand that respect is not to be forced but to be earned. Forcing it will erode respect and generate lots of pretension and covert hate. This judge basically endangers all cops (and the community) for giving revenge to this one prick lacking self control! It's mind-blowing that someone less mature than a teenager can become a judge!

Too bad you could not bring that judge up on charges of judicial misconduct - if he indeed told you that the charge against you had no merit, but decided to punish you anyway because he did not approve of your demeanor.

... or otherwise, that people in your community could not apply any counter-pressure to such judicial behavior, in the media and public fora.

at some point you just take your lumps.

Most people don’t have boundless time or energy and just want things to go away.

… ironically this fact is used a lot in gaining confessions by police.

To be fair to the judge we all had broken an ordinance about surfing in a certain area. It was enacted to protect swimmers in the summer. With that said, there was a storm with wind, rain, and currents that had pushed us into the area. Obviously there were also no swimmers out.

The ordinance was removed a few years later. This cop was also known to hate surfers. All the small beach town BS you hear about.

I wonder if the cop learnt his lesson? (rhetorical question)

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