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Sorry this could be offensive didn't mean to be.. Any Greek speakers who studied Homer in school here can share what are your favourite English translations?

Prefer Lattimore or Fitzgerald as being closer to original?

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Derek Thompson's Plain English podcast just had Emily Wilson on talking about comparisons between the translations, and quite a bit of the iconic lines of the Odyssey from the midcentury translations are kind of just made up. Like, "skilled in all ways of contending" from "man of many turns"; "the wanderer, harried for years on end" --- find that in the Greek?

Yes, how would the average classicist or modern Greek translate polymetis? Polytropos? Into current day American vernacular

Lattimore's "the man of many ways" sounds closer to the original than Wilson's "complicated man" but neither sounds made up

"wine dark sea" is the best example of this. It's a poetic/literary leap by Chapman and Pope that then became a functional convention in most subsequent translations.

The alternative translations aren't any better though, at least in English.

The original is οινοπα ποντον which indeed is very close to wine-dark sea. Literally "wine-faced" where -faced is a metaphor for "having the appearance of".

Literally "wine-faced" or "wine-eyed", yes. The problem with the literal wine-faced/wine-eyed is it doesn't convey luminosity/depth to readers, so it kind of misses the point. The missing context is that ancient wine was often unfiltered and cloudy, and diluted before being served.

"wine-looking" would be better for modern readers in terms of conveying the actual meaning, but again, it doesn't convey the actual idea Homer is getting at, and sounds awkward to repeat.

It's fun to think about alternatives far from the text like "garnet-hued sea", "sapphire-hued sea", "burgundy sea", but they all miss on either hue or clarity. "Lee-dark sea" is probably the closest, and hits the wine idea.

The Abundance guy has a literature podcast? The grift never ends...

"man of many turns" is at least a better translation than "complicated man" which feels to me like a bit of a travesty to translate polytropos into. Polytropos literally has the roots of "many" and "turn" in it, "complicated" is not there. Lattimore was a literalist and his translation's weird for that but more fair to the Greek than what I've seen of Wilson's translation. Wilson takes the Fagles approach, but modernizes it.

For the record I can still recite the first book of Homer in Greek so I have opinions.

She wasn't making an argument for the verisimilitude of her translation, just a comment about how detached the most popular English translations are from the source text; some of what's in those translations is literally invented, to fit a vibe.

Yes, every translation is an interpretation, none can capture what the original Homeric Greek means in English, all make some kinds of compromises. It is work noting that it is absolutely the case that some of what's Emily Wilson's translation is literally invented to fit a vibe - see "complicated man" which is not only not what the Greek says, but also violates the spirit of what the Greek says.

I’m not quite who you asked; I’m a native English speaker but I’ve read much more Homer in Greek than in English. (Say, I’ve read a little more than half the Odyssey in Greek.) Honestly none of the English translations really capture the magic, at least for me. Skimming through a bit, I’d say Fagles is the closest.

But it’s like saying: “Any Texans who ate BBQ growing up, can you share your favorite fast food places? Prefer McDonald’s or BK as being closer to the original?”

(Emily Wilson’s version is great but doesn’t feel like Homer at all, when I read it.)

Yours is the answer I didn't know I needed. Thank you.

The burger analogy is just right! It might sound dumb but as somebody who can't afford a Texan childood from the shop... BK, which happens to be a childhood staple of mine.. makes me feel like I could make a sweet sauce that actual Texans could like. Not MacDonalds.

To bring the analogy back: It does seem like Nolan's adaptation would be not be popular with you or your schoolmates. But a screenplay based off Fagles' might have a chance

Childhood card-holding Texan here: can confirm the king's flavor is closer to that of country mesquite smoked BBQ than McDonald's.

I mean, it is comparing burgers and briskets, but if we're going for which translation is the most "faithful" ...

Former classicist here. When I taught Homer in translation, I always used Butler's prose versions. You have to turn Homer inside out to render him in English verse like most of the popular translations do, and I don't consider the results worth the effort.

I'm not really familiar with ancient or modern Greek, but according to https://speakgreektome.com/blog/ancient-vs-modern-greek/#hom..., people who can only read modern Greek need a translation too if they want to read Homer's works ("While reading, many words here and there will be familiar to a Greek or at least will make sense via etymological references, it’s impossible, though, for average folk to understand a text 100% without a translation and formal study, because many words that are key to the meaning will be incomprehensible.").

Yeap, that's true. I'm a native Greek and although we were taught ancient Greek in high school I barely remember any of it. Reading the original text from Homer I can probably understand or infer 20% of it. Only students who later followed a philologist path can still read or speak ancient Greek fluently.

Maybe my question was poorly posed. So, I've an alternative question. Have you encountered modern parodies written in "Ancient Greek style". Much like sometimes I see (LLM-generated) fake texts in Shakespeare's style, have any Homer-style verses "gone viral" (maybe written by the philologists)

Would these philologists complain about how the dialogue in the movie Iphigenia is not faithful lol

I haven't encountered something like what you suggest, but I'm probably not the best person to ask because I'm not in linguistic related circles.

But I can tell you that a lot of local philologists don't like Nolan's interpretation of Odyssey because it didn't stayed loyal to the original text, and mainly to the how Odysseus himself is portrayed. The criticism focuses on the fact that Odysseus is portrayed more like a warrior and less than a cunning person. In the begging of Odyssey for example he's described as "πολύτροπος" (polytropos) which literally means a man of many ways.

I haven't seen the movie to have an opinion and to me it doesn't matter how he's portrayed. Sales of Homer's Odyssey have skyrocketed in Britain, which more or less says it all.

Yeah, I studied Koine, Attic, and Homeric Greek over eight years in school, Modern Greek's the Greek of the Eastern Romans who spoke an evolving Koine (this language they actually called Rhomaic) while their intellectuals turned to Atticizing. When Greek became a nation state Atticizing was idealized (called Katharevousa) so Attic and Koine are more intelligible (I can't speak much modern Greek and have no listening comp, but can read menus and signs and monuments in Greece), but Homeric Greek is a distinct dialect with its own weird vocabulary, weird particles, lots of complicated inflections later Greek lost like the dual forms, and so on. More like Middle English, familiar but very weird. I did a seminar where we read Homer's Odyssey in Greek, any English translations will inevitably be an interpretation reflecting the thoughts and values of the translator. Lattimore's good in some areas, terrible in others, Emily Wilson's great in some areas, terrible in others. I never read Fagles but assume it's the same.

As someone who's only studied Ancient Greek I can say the reverse is true as well, not much use of my 5 years in HS when I'm in Greece.

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