Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation” | Hacker News Reader

Supporting Israel’s “start-up nation”

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29 pointscleverjake42 comments

This is pretty exciting for the Israeli scene. That space was long awaited and the (pre-)accelerator too. I'm looking forward to hosting events there (I'm one of the organizers of GDG Tel-Aviv).

Spaces and accelerators like this, or Microsoft's in Herzelia (Starting it's second group soon) make it one of the best times to be an entrepreneur in Israel.

Why would anyone here support a fundamentally racist, oppressive de-facto apartheid occupying state which is about to commit genocide?

Especially considering the above average intelligence i presume people here to have.

Israel needs to be boycotted, globally. Not supported. Not in any way. Not in the slightest.

From the guidelines:

Please avoid introducing classic flamewar topics unless you have something genuinely new to say about them.

I'm questioning the ethics of having this on HN at all. I think that is absolutely within reason.

Same question I have, but on your comment, not on the topic.

When the Israeli terrorists stop murdering women and children and ordinary civilians we can stop flame wars against them. Until then if you stay silent at the injustice, you are siding with the oppressor. That's from Desmond Tutu who fought South African apartheid. Guess what he's got to say about Israeli regime? He said it's worse than what they faced; there were no white-only roads in South Africa and they weren't bombing blacks with F-16s and Gunship helicopters like Israelis are.

I don't take you seriously, sorry, you also claim that:

> "many of the stories trumpeted by Western and Saudi-backed media highlighting Syrian regime's brutality have turned out to be fake (or worse, some massacres blamed on regime were actually carried out by CIA-sponsored armed Syrian "rebels"). "

see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4318514

No politics in HN, please.

I think the title of the article is unnecessarily provocative considering recent political and military events. It might not be intentional but a little more thought into the title could have resulted in something with less political overtones, say, "Supporting Israel's Start-Up Community".

The title is in reference to the book "Startup Nation", nothing provocative about it.

"No politics" is like absolute zero: a state unreachable because of the nature of the universe. In fact, "no politics" is in itself a very political statement; you're calling for a libertarian foreign policy attitude by saying that it's possible to separate technology from the conditions under which it is produced and used.

If it were Apple or Google enacting a murderous military occupation I don't think you'd get very far trying to prevent people from discussing that on HN. Nations are like what we used to have before corporations... remember?

Do you think the major part of Israel support oppressing people? think again. This is about startups and people.

This is supporting Israeli startups, not the Israeli government. more and more Israeli startups outsource work to Palestinian high tech companies, which is probably a good thing for both sides.

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/05/29/technology/29compute.html?...

http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/israeli-high-tech-compa...

That's a good point. A lot of companies in Israel outsource QA, development and other things to Arab and Palestinian firms. Both Neocleus (my first job) and Intel (my second) had real partnerships with Arab and Palestinian firms.

When gaza lays downs its arms (rockets) and picks up its laptops, Israel will be the first one in there with shekels, know-how, and support.

Preface: I'm an Israeli Jew, born in the United States. I've lived in Israel since 1995, and now have a family (with three children).

I could respond to this comment by saying, "Why be so negative toward Israel, when there are so many countries that treat people so much worse?" But even though I believe that there are indeed countries with far worse human-rights records than Israel, and which treat citizens and non-citizens worse than we do -- it doesn't comfort me to hear, or to know, that we do a lot of things wrong.

I could say that if you feel this way about Israel, that you should be equally adamant about boycotting China, Syria, Saudia Arabia, or Iran, let alone Russia or other "illiberal democracies." But that's a cheap excuse; after all, I didn't move to Israel, and I don't believe in the re-establishment of Jewish sovereignty, by creating and fostering a country with a dismal human-rights record.

The sad fact is that Israel doesn't treat the Palestinians well. As a religious Israeli Jew, I find much of that treatment to be an embarrassment, giving me pause regarding the type of country that we've established here, and the future of Judaism in a sovereign state. That said, I'm pretty liberal in Israeli political terms, and the bloodthirsty words I hear coming from the Hamas leadership, along with the more muted tones I hear from the Fatah-led West Bank, make even me wonder if we can trust the Palestinians. I have to hope that the answer is "yes," because if we can't ever trust each other, then we'll never reach a peace treaty, or ever reach a reasonable compromise.

In the end, I get comfort from knowing that Israel is a democracy, with a very strong tradition of free speech and free press, in which all sorts of opinions are allowed, if not welcomed. I have to hope and assume that while the process might be messy, and might take far longer than I like, Israeli governments will eventually manage to reach a peace deal with the Palestinians.

Oh, and to claim that Israel is interested in genocide is pure nonsense, and makes an already complex situation into a set of bumper stickers and meaningless statements.

To bring this back to the HN focus on startups: One of the reasons for Israelis to compromise, and to reach an agreement with the Palestinians, is to see that we have a lot to lose by not compromising. The rapid growth of high tech in Israel has changed the face of the country, making it stronger and wealthier than ever before. I believe, and maybe I'm wrong here, that the strength, wealth, and integration into the global economy gives Israel an opportunity to negotiate from a position of strength.

In other words, Google's entry into Israel's startup scene has the potential to chip away at the problems you have with Israel. It will take time, because things always do in democratic countries, and especially when failure in your foreign and defense policy means the potential death of yourself and your loved ones.

So instead of calling Israel names, and saying that the world should simply disengage from what we're doing here, I encourage you to take a more nuanced view, to talk to actual Israelis about what we're doing (and not doing), and to see how we can improve the world through startups and high-tech inventiveness. Google is having a more direct, positive affect on the peace process than your comment did, and for that I commend them.

What Chutzpah you've got, born in US has the right to be a citizen of the settler state but natives cannot return and you want us all to support your Judeo-supremacist terrorist state?

Take your hasbara somewhere else. Saudi, China etc are not settler states which deny equal rights to their people of certain race or ethnicity or religion, and they don't get $3 billion in aid from US for 7 million people of a preferred race only. Israeli apartheid regime gets more aid than sub-Saharan Africa and entire Latin America combined. Saudi, China etc haven't violated dozens or UN resolutions and don't get US diplomatic shielding for their war crimes. They are criticised for their brutal actions and so should Israeli terror be criticised. Stop demanding special treatment for your settler state. You can talk when you give equal rights to Palestinians, when you give the natives the right to return, at least the same rights as a US-born settler, if not more because they are the rightful owners of their land.

The Israeli-Palestinian conflict is one of two national/ethnic groups having claim to the same piece of land. I accept the fact that Israel must compromise with the Palestinians, and relinquish some of the land that it has captured. I remember when this was a radical suggestion among Israelis; it is now quite mainstream, although you wouldn't know it from listening to our elected officials.

To confuse this attitude with the superficial propaganda that our government puts out, and to say that the Palestinians (and not Jews) are the "rightful owners of the land," is a recipe for non-compromise and for continued conflict.

Israel isn't going anywhere, and neither are Israelis. But the Palestinians aren't about to disappear, either. We can work together to try to resolve this conflict, accepting that each side has a claim to the land and attempting to share it -- or we, and our children, and their children, can continue to fight and live in fear.

Remember how Germany and France fought, again and again, for oh-so-many years? After World War II, they decided that it was in their mutual best interest to connect their economies through what would eventually become the European Union. Perhaps, if we can connect and encourage cooperation between the Israeli and Palestinian economies, especially in the high-tech sector, we can begin to see such interdependence and trust in the Middle East, too.

What is your point? You want to have your apartheid and eat it too and no one should dare call it what it is? Do you support the rights of the Jaffa-born and Haifa-born and Deir Yaseen-born Palestinians to return to their land and have at least the rights a US-born settler has? Currently the wing nuts of Israel (I.e. the rightist as well as leftists) are not willing to give those rights and neither is the wide majority of Israeli Jews. Until they are forced to give equal rights they should be boycotted and you should stand for the boycott, not against.

Germany had to end the occupation of France and the rights of French were not that of second class citizens when they did all the nice cooperative things you mentioned.

I think Israel will not willingly give right of return to the refugees, regardless if it's justified or not, giving all Palestinian refugees rights to go back as equal Israeli citizens will mean majority to the Palestinians in the next Israeli elections and the end of the state of Israel. Not something the state of Israel will likely accept as it will mean a Palestinian prime minister ruling the state which includes commanding the Israeli army, Israeli police, intelligence etc. This is one of the top debate issues between the Palestinians and Israel - what to do with the refugees. Monetary compensation is most likely what will happen in a final agreement, and some Palestinians accept it as a fact, even though the public voice there is for physical return of refugees, they know that they can't force Israel to make a decision that will result in it's elimination.

So the American and Belgian and Russian Jews will not give equal rights to the Palestinians and you won't even give them a state on the tiny 18-20% of their original land. That is precisely what my problem is with the Israeli apartheid regime and it should be the problem of any half decent human being to stop the apartheid.

in case you had not realised, this will not last. The US (and its client states such as Canada and some tiny Pacific islands) cannot keep your status as superior and keep giving you shielding despite bombings, home demolitions and new Jewish-only settlements. Either you have to give at least nominally equal rights to Palestinians or you have to prepare for the Algerian solution (French settlers had to pack up and leave). Until that, your apartheid state should be boycotted monetarily, diplomatically and culturally.

American and Belgian and Russian jews? I lost you here my friend, sorry.

But few questions

1. why do you assume everyone replying is Israeli? I don't live in Israel, not sure what you mean "your state"

2. I'm all for giving the Palestinian a state side by side with Israel, I just think that expecting that a boycott will cause Israel to agree to giving citizenship to all refugees and thus ending the state of Israel as we know it is a little naive I have to say.

If you think Boycotting Israel or promoting it by commenting in forums will help that happen, all the best, you'll win the Nobel peace price if that will cause the conflict to end. But I doubt that's the way, the way is getting the hate a notch down, from both sides.

What is your solution, except boycotting which you mentioned, to the conflict? I'm happy to hear if you have any creative solution that will make this endless conflict end once and for all.

Let's assume a boycott works, or in other words, let's say you are now the prime minister of Israel, what would you do to end the conflict? What's your solution?

Israel, as a country, is nothing like apartheid, and it's a shame that you use that term. Arabs can and do freely participate in all parts of Israeli life, including membership and elected officials in just about every mainstream political party. It's acknowledged that more needs to be done to bring Arab income and educational levels up to those of Jewish Israelis, and there are far too many places in which Arabs officially and unofficially face discrimination. But there's a world of difference between discrimination and apartheid.

An increasingly vocal slice of economists, investors, and entrepreneurs are saying that helping Arab citizens to found high-tech companies would be good for the country, good (obviously) for those individuals, and might help to bridge the divide between Israel and the Arab world.

The situation is sadly different in the territories, which I believe is a moral and legal albatross around Israel's neck, and one which we need to resolve as quickly as possible -- preferably by pulling out most settlements and recognizing a Palestinian state.

As for Palestinians returning to their ancestral homes, I'm afraid that as with countless wars over the centuries, that will not happen for the overwhelming majority of them. The alternative would lead to an unlimited civil war, one which would have dire consequences for the entire public. I feel bad for people who lost their homes, and believe that they should be compensated. But no Israeli government, left or right, will agree for such a thing to happen, and I happen to believe that it's counterproductive for the welfare of Palestinians to focus on that, rather than building a free, democratic, and open Palestine -- something which has yet to occur, I'm afraid.

Finally, I'm not sure why you keep referring to me as a settler. I'm an immigrant, a resident, a citizen, and all sorts of other things. But I bought my home in a city within Israel proper, within the Green Line, despite all sorts of financial encouragement that the government gave me to go over the Green Line. If you want to make personal claims and accusations, I ask that you do so based on facts, rather than slogans.

You were not born in the land called Israel/Palestine, you were able to move there because of a supremacist regime that won't give the same rights to the natives just because of their race/creed/color. You US-born Jew have more rights than Jaffa-born Palestinian Christians or Isdud-born Muslims who were kicked out before Isdud was renamed to Ashdod yet you ask me why I call you a settler.

Mizrahim / Eastern Jews and Black African Jews were also treated as Guinea Pigs by the European Jews; they gave the children thousands of times more powerful x-rays than allowed amount, several died instantly, many have died of cancer.

Are you capable of rational thought? Are you talking about the settler state Israel which doesn't give equal rights to the natives yet allows Americans and Russians to move there based on their mother's religion or some other fictional country? A regime which has a separate set of laws for two groups based on their race, color or creed is referred to as an apartheid regime.

59% of Israelis approve of the term apartheid and support the discriminatory policies of their country:

http://972mag.com/poll-israelis-support-discrimination-again...

http://www.aljazeera.com/indepth/opinion/2012/10/20121027145...

I fully agree with you. Well said!

Someone may as well close this thread. People can't resist bringing politics into this startup discussion because it happens to involve Isreal.

I am very worried that a community I like has this reaction to my country. All of the top level comments except yours and mine are negative towards Israel and totally off topic from the article. I definitely support closing this thread.

I don't know what Google intends by support, but if it were me I certainly wouldn't invest in Israel.

The amorality of it aside, Israel is also a huge intellectual property and espionage risk.

Check out "Spy Trade" by Grant F Smith as an example reference (links below).

http://vimeo.com/31298789

http://www.amazon.com/Spy-Trade-Israels-Undermines-Americas/...

I still haven't seen your links but I think you are somewhat misinformed by seeing only one side of the issue. Israel (specifically Tel Aviv) is the biggest startup ecosystem outside of Silicon Valley. Do you really think that it got there by being un-investable or espionage risk? And on the flip side, do you not think that the US is even a bigger espionage risk as it has probably the largest Sigint operation (the NSA) in the world?

Edit: After seeing it is a one hour lecture I instead spent 5 minutes googleing the uploader - IRmep. IRmep is not a fair and balanced organization. It is obviously anti-Israel with its statements on twitter (https://twitter.com/IRmep).

So instead of looking at the evidence you smear the author instead.

Congratulations! You've just discovered the ad-hominem fallacy.

Details available from: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_fallacies

This is ridiculous pink washing of war crimes, apartheid, murder and terror perpetrated by a colonial settler state which is the last such project in which the natives are still not allowed to return to their homes from which European settlers kicked them out in 1948. The population of Palestine was only 3% Jewish in 1905, and the UN plan gave them 55% of land in 1947 (Jewish population still 33% of total population) but the Zionist murderers wanted more. The terrorists massacred hundreds of natives in massacres like Deir Yaseen and drove out 80% of the native population and occupied 78% of the land which is called "Israel" since 1948. The natives have the right to return but he murderers won't let them return even though Australian, Russian, American Jews have the right to "return" even without any link to this land, its culture, or its language in the past 1000+ years.

Let's promote the start up culture of these settlers who continue to occupy the remaining 22% land since 1967 and built Jewish-only settlements on the land stolen every day. Let's kick out the natives, kill them in the concentration camp (Gaza) and build a new startup on their land!

How is this the top comment?

It's factual?

No it's not.

Because accountswu is spamming this thread and most of the top level comments are his. I wish there was a way to report him. Looking at his history he isn't exactly what I'd want a fellow HN contributor to be. Anyways it isn't the first comment for me, so hopefully it will sink even further soon.

If you are allergic to facts then I apologise for offering you something other than koolaid.

If you are more enlightened and you feel that I am the one who is ignorant I will appreciate it when you correct me.

However, if you only attack my personality rather than countering what I said then I would assume that I didn't say anything wrong.

And yes, the majority of Israelis recognise that the Palestinian citizens of Israel are treated as second class citizens and yes the majority approves of it. The majority of Palestinians are of course in exile since 1948 and more since 1967 (and are in much worse situation such as the refugees who have been living in Gaza) but this poll is about those who survived the European Jewish terrorism in 1948 and ended up as Israeli citizens.

http://972mag.com/poll-israelis-support-discrimination-again... (edit: linkify)

I see the Hasbara police is here too (US-taxpayer funded Israeli government-paid propagandists who troll the internet to explain why they kill women and children and why they don't give equal rights to Palestinians and why they continue to occupy the 22% of the remaining land of original Palestine).

What is a good place for this new startup? Maybe Al-Arakib which is a Palestinian Bedouin village where peopel have been living for hundreds of years and have deeds from Ottoman era but the settler startup nation keeps demolishing their homes? http://mondoweiss.net/2012/06/al-araqib-demolished-for-the-3...

http://electronicintifada.net/blogs/ali-abunimah/israeli-stu...

I would try to take you seriously and prove all you said above is factually wrong if you wouldn't have made this comment on another topic:

So you are supporting the Syrian regime, and think it's all done by the CIA and not Asad's people, or did I read it wrong?

see http://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=4318514

I admire the effort you put in trying to convince others with your point, but calling Israel a murderous regime and in the same time protecting Syria and saying it's all done by the CIA is not helping you make people agree with you.

If you are not being paid by someone to write this, than I don't really think you are going to make any difference in the world, the best you are doing is making sure any US company, Israeli company, or company with Jewish people in the world will not hire you as a programmer / whatever it is that you do, and if you are not a programmer or anything hacker related, than what are you doing in Hacker news besides starting flame wars?

You are no better than the "Hasbara" you call, count the number of comments you have made in a thread that was long ago removed from HN (just because of users like you who started a flame war in it).

Please go and do something productive, build something, share your code, what have you done lately that helped humanity?

HN should have a "down vote" available. Perhaps it does, but I couldn't find it.

Is that a comment on the article or on Israel?

Because this is a site fundamentally about start-ups, especially incubators, and so news about them is relevant. If you think the post shouldn't have been put-up because its not all that interesting or news-worthy, that's fine, although I do happen to disagree with you. If that vague post is regarding Israel (which again, this being a site about start-up culture makes me think it likely was) then you are contributing absolutely nothing by posting that, regardless of your feelings towards that situation.

I think there is but you need to have a certain score to access it. Be thankful, otherwise you'd violated the guidelines based on your political bias without even knowing :-)

Reply on news.ycombinator.com