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faitswulff

> Didn't they bring hundreds of millions out of poverty, and built amazing cities and facilities in the past 30 years?

Yes, but China-bad ideology demands that we ask ”at what cost?”

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I wonder if similar costs were paid when the West was industrializing?

Spoiler: Yes.

There was a real human cost to how China industrialized that isn’t “muh freedoms”.

China overproduced STEM grads so that their industries could hire them for pennies on the dollar. They had to withstand insane competition starting in elementary school, only to end up unemployed or doordashing.

This isn’t a PRC specific thing either, TSMC is infamous for having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies (comparatively).

In general, I do think the East Asian nations have over-prioritized work for export and industrial policy at the expense of the well-being of their citizens.

It feels to me more like, East Asian nations tend to have robust domestic sets of expectations that tend to be more stringent, reinforced by geological and cultural barriers, and comparatively lower international castes. Anyone born in EA have no choice but to constantly beat the average and to make contributions to the street cred jar for the nation. And that produce such things as TSMC chips and DJI drones and 7-11 egg salad sandwiches.

> having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies

I don't know why people keep bringing this up as though it is surprising.

In almost any field other than AI PhDs are underpaid on average.

There are many, many bio PhDs working as lab technicians.

> This isn’t a PRC specific thing either, TSMC is infamous for having PhDs doing night shift lab tech work for pennies (comparatively).

Engineers from Taiwan go to mainland China these days to earn more money. Taiwan was pretty brutal with personal sacrifice in its development as much or if more than the mainland. We could say similar about Korea, Japan, and Singapore as well. This is why Asia seems to be taking over the world now, but the people are about as happy as you’d expect.

China isn't bad, the CCP is.

That simplistic characterization is still essentially "China-bad." The CCP is the same government responsible for lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty. Does it make up for other human rights violations? No. But "CCP bad" flattens a complex and powerful political organization into a fairy tale boogeyman.

The worst part of the CCP is it's hatred for free speech

https://www.theguardian.com/world/2026/jul/16/hong-kong-book...

Five arrested in Hong Kong bookstore raids in ‘seditious’ materials crackdown

Third round of arrests linked to independent bookshops widely regarded as clampdown on dissent in territory

If that's the "worst part" about them, reacting like that to sedition plans, it sounds quite tame.

It's not like people elsewhere, cough, are not arrested for protesting against the bombing in Palestine or against ICE. Or, on the other side of the pond (and on the other side of the political spectrum), for tweeting against illegal immigration to their country. Or in Germany for merely calling the chancellor an idiot.

> lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty.

Basically true, but not much more than that for most Chinese. The urban modern success story presented to the world is a surprisingly small segment of a notably larger population and even for many in that smaller more fortunate segment the gravy days are long ago and no sign of returning yet.

https://eastasiaforum.org/2011/08/19/in-the-city-but-not-of-...

And chinese don't have full freedom of movement. China uses a system called called hukou which binds a persons rights and benefits to their birthplace. This has created a population of 350 million rural migrants who live in cities but still have a rural hukou and are treated like second class citizens in their own country.

https://borgenproject.org/chinas-hukou-system-restricts-mobi...

China is a communists based country. Everything is organized and for everything there is a plan. Unlike America where it's free for all. We probably would die from unhappiness in China. But it works for them and they are pretty successful in it.

China is not actually communist anymore. It is totalitarian capitalist

At this point you're just openly shilling for the CCP. The CCP killed millions of people through incompetence, and then they had the brilliant idea of copying the exact development model of the Asian Tigers. It's their previous incompetence that's the reason that they haven't already caught up with South Korea.

Millions? Please. CCP as it's now was created after reforms by Deng. Most people died due to Mao. CCP back then was only Mao loyalists. CCP endorsed Mao only to gain public legitimacy as the ruling party, since back then China was still a poor country prone to revolts and extremist ideas.

> CCP as it's now was created after reforms by Deng.

Their policies changed, so they're no longer responsible for their own history?

The current generations are not responsible for historical things they didn't order or did.

As for the country as an abstract in general, sure. As much as other countries are responsible for their own history.

I don't think most folks I know in the US are willing to touch the historical wrongs (genocide and slavery) with a 3.048M pole.

> I don't think most folks I know in the US are willing to touch the historical wrongs (genocide and slavery) with a 3.048M pole.

I hear those discussed quite often in the US. Someone is obviously willing. And more importantly, it's legal.

Nothing the US has done is covered up the way the CCP has covered up the 1989 Tiananmen Square massacre.

> The CCP is the same government responsible for lifting historically unprecedented numbers of people out of abject poverty.

The CCP also put most of those people into such abject poverty from the 50s onwards. They give up on communism and thereby reversed the problems caused by communism like this: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Leap_Forward

The CCP now has proved a 'better' system than the western 'democracy' that is in many ways at the end of its life.

Both systems are at end-of-life. If anything, China is closer to the end. The total fertility rate in China is down to 1, while the US is 1.62.

It's as if the introduction of market capitalism and consumerism into a country craters the fertility rate and dooms it!

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