Comment by sph | Hacker News Reader

Comment by sph | Hacker News Reader

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I keep forgetting that there is a requirement to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in US schools [1], which is just mind-boggling to me, and it's never something they proudly advertise through their propaganda arm of Hollywood. In hundreds of US-produced shows set in US schools, that detail is always conveniently omitted.

Here's how it works for the non-Americans of us:

"I pledge allegiance to the Flag of the United States of America, and to the Republic for which it stands, one Nation under God, indivisible, with liberty and justice for all," should be rendered by standing at attention facing the flag with the right hand over the heart.

Remembering this often-forgotten detail puts a lot of US culture and behaviour in perspective. Also let's not forget the Bellamy salute, in use for 50 years until 1942: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bellamy_salute

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1: and in congressional sessions, government meetings at local levels, and meetings held by many private organizations, according to Wikipedia

> I keep forgetting that there is a requirement to recite the Pledge of Allegiance in US schools

There most certainly is not. The pledge is common in schools but the Supreme Court has ruled no one is required to participate and cannot be punished for non-participation. Is it still weird? Sure. But it’s not required.

Somehow nobody ever bothers to mention to the kids that it's not required.

How many schools still do it, though? Honestly you could tell me it was almost universal or very rare, and I'd have to believe you either way.

Of course, Canada was doing the freaking Lord's Prayer in schools until freaking 1988. I don't know about other countries, but wouldn't be surprised.

In the US schools I'm familiar with, it's "not required" kind of like how it's not required to attend meetings at work. Nobody's forcing you, but it will be noticed and there will be consequences.

> there will be consequences

What sort of consequences? I'm guessing the US got rid of corporal punishment, and since it's optional, could they give like detention and stuff for it? Or is this more about being bullied/similar by peers?

When I was in school decades ago, the consequences were that the teacher would single you out and scold you to “follow directions”, maybe they’d do whatever write up for not following directions. I’m sure in some places kids got detention or letters sent home to their parents, etc.

Also the US did not get rid of corporal punishment entirely, the south still has it in some places. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/School_corporal_punishment_in_...

Sometimes it's not even direct consequences. You stand out as "that kid" and suddenly, you aren't given the benefit of the doubt the next time there is some kind of conflict at school. Or you are held to the rules -just a bit- more strictly than everyone else. Or, if your grade is on the border between a B+ and A-, they'll give you the B where they give the more obedient kids the A. When you become "that kid" the consequences can be almost invisible and insidious.

At least in the US, teachers and administrators are given rather broad latitude to treat students differently, without requiring justification and very often based on their own personal biases and prejudices.

The irony of (teacher) reciting a pledge in support of 'liberty and justice for all' and then falling apart because a child has tried to use some of that liberty, then wishing and perpetuating injustice upon them in retaliation, is strong.

If one's ideals fall over so easily, what would happen in the event of an actual serious attack on those ideals?

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"Not required" but my teachers made it abundantly clear what they thought of being forced to allow ungrateful troublemakers to disrespect their country.

I always disliked the Pledge and began to strongly dislike it after moving away from the religion it tries to establish as the national religion, but I was keenly aware that picking this fight would cost me considerable political capital and chose not to.

I had to do the pledge in early elementary school. It didn't continue forever. Not sure if people still do it. I do agree it's disturbing. Interestingly we once read a book in school that featured a character who refused to say the pledge and got in trouble for it. IIRC it was a case of "you aren't technically required to do this but they'll give you a hard time if you're the only one not doing it".

I stopped doing it when I was in high school (I just stood there) and no one cared. This would have been about 22 years ago

It didn't seem mind-boggling during the cold war. But I guess it does now.

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