Hacker News Reader

Comment by orbital-decay | Hacker News Reader

>This situation has.. no precedent as far as I can tell..

Printer, mouse, tablet and display tablet makers use this to insert their crapware since at least Windows Vista or Windows 7, I think. The last one I remember is plugging a Razer mouse just to watch it instantly pulling 1.5GB of bloated junk with "telemetry" exfiltrating the data from my gaming PC in realtime. At least it doesn't leave my mouse in a non-working state when I disconnect the internet, like it used to. Thanks, Razer!

Microsoft is to blame here, really. They have a mechanism to block any vendor (supposedly to avoid reputational risks to their brand due to buggy drivers, at least that was their excuse back in the day), but aren't even using it to block these contraptions. Entire businesses are built on this, e.g. Razer is probably more of a marketing/data company now rather than a hardware shop.

View on HN

Back in my Window days. I would start the driver installation and let it sit. Open the temp folder and copy content the install extracted to a new directory. Cancel the installation. Open Device Manager and install the drivers from there so non of the excessive bloat was installed.

This worked greater with being an IT consultant. The client's machine to run smoother and drivers installed fast since they would buy multiples of the same equipment at once.

Now I only use Linux on personal equipment. You have to pay me to use Microsoft products. Microsoft has become shit-ware.

These days, even a window gets updates.

https://www.netjeff.com/humor/item.cgi?file=lastwin.95

7zip will do the trick for a lot of self extractors.

To be fair Microsoft was always shitware. I don’t remember a time when using a Windows machine just worked, didn’t take up gigabytes of space, didn’t crash, and didn’t get messed up by simply using it requiring a yearly or semi-yearly reinstall.

Windows 3.1? It was only 6 3.5” disks.

To be fair, I had stretches of 2K, XP, 7 and 10 working acceptably.

These eras of Windows had their own dark patterns that were incredibly anti-consumer. No one's lives were improved because they installed the Ask Jeeves toolbar, but people were asked to install it millions and millions of times.

> Windows 3.1? It was only 6 3.5” disks.

Well ackchyually... Windows 3.1 was just a window manager, you needed another 3 disks for DOS, and if you wanted that sweet networking support, you'd need Windows for Workgroups 3.11 which was 8 disks!

Microsoft BASIC was a pretty decent interpreter, I wouldn't call it "shitware", so there you go?

I don't remember DOS 6.22 blue screening on me. Maybe it wasn't so bad.

That's because it black-screened instead.

Ah for the days when the OS didn't stop you from jerking off every hardware bit

I would have preferred a Forth on my C64 seriously. But no, we were stuck with this "38911 bytes free" crap.

If you checked any of the contemporaries, C64 offered more free BASIC RAM than others.

Windows in the 95-XP era wasn't exactly high-quality software, but it was genuine technical innovation, doing what you otherwise couldn't do.

Nothing since then. Thats a long 30 years.

Windows 7 was also incredibly good.

And yeah, there was some pretty neat stuff. Of Linux, macOS and Windows, Windows was the first to get GPU crash recovery, just chugging onward after a stall instead of bringing the entire system down.

The biggest sign for me that Microsoft just doesn't care about Windows (aside from the ads stuffed everywhere after a fresh install) is they stopped caring about its bones. Where is Windows' equivalent of APFS / BTRFS (or even EXT4)..? NTFS is more than 20 years old by now.

> Where is Windows' equivalent of APFS / BTRFS (or even EXT4)..? NTFS is more than 20 years old by now.

There's ReFS, but a lot of NTFS features are basically baked into the filesystem API, so replacing it is hard.

That being said, NTFS works extremely well and reliable. I don't really see a compelling need to replace it (which is always a messy transition unless you're completely backwards-compatible -- but in that case, NTFS has evolved a lot already).

Our culture is to replace working things purely because they're old. Solved problem? Never heard of her.

APFS and BTRFS are objectively better than NTFS. Hell, even HFS+ and EXT4 already were.

And then there is already the next generation knocking on the door. BcacheFS is really cool and yet another step forward in performance and reliability.

Nothing stopping you from enjoying Slackware 11 on EXT2 though :)

I remember when Windows didn't take gigabytes of space because there wasn't gigabytes of space, and it was still shitware.

That happened all the time. My Windows machines, from XP all the way up through early Windows 10, just worked. They didn't crash. And they certainly didn't need to get reinstalled for no reason. Your experience, while unfortunate, is not remotely typical.

Windows 2000 was incredible. It was so sleek, fast and worked so much better than XP. I'm sure it still required a lot of tinkering compared to a modern OS, but I still miss it.

When .INF was all you needed (and some .cat / sys)! More recently, I found out that approach can sometimes lead to missing features when using the hardware. Even though the driver is installed correctly. I was probably missing something but didn't dig deeper into it.

"The Halloween documents comprise a series of confidential Microsoft memoranda on potential strategies relating to free software, open-source software, and to Linux in particular, and a series of media responses to these memoranda. "

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halloween_documents

https://www.windowscentral.com/microsoft-accused-being-conne...

> but aren't even using it to block these contraptions

Even worse, this one is installed via Windows update. I have an LG monitor and noticed the stupid LG app all of the sudden, uninstalled it, and saw it pop up again as an update in Windows update.

Microsoft is actively enabling this behavior.

I don't understand how this is legal. Isn't this malware? Isn't it illegal to install malware on someone's computer without their permission? Or is this very illegal, but nobody cares about that anymore?

you'd need to legally prove it's malware and they would definitely claim it's useful software tools that come with the hardware or something

I guess it’s becoming harder for MS to define malware in a way that would catch this behavior but does not flag their own products as well.

"Isn't it illegal to install malware on someone's computer without their permission?"

Yeah but you almost certainly granted permission to allow updates from our "Partners" when you installed windows. How did you miss clause III of romanette 2 in the 6th paragraph right in front of your face on page 26 of the ToS?

Tou probably agreed to this when you broke the seal on the box that contained the monitor and a copy of the agreement you just agreed to.

If you think that’s bad, don’t ask what you agreed to by reading this comment.

I miss the days when contracts required two-party consent, or at least “meeting of the minds” / negotiations.

There have been courts that have voided unreasonable EULAs, I believe. I suspect this can be fought too. But getting actual meaningful consequences for the manufacturers to make them stop doing this, may be a different matter.

When individuals test the boundaries of the law, they go to jail or get fined to bankruptcy. When corporations test the boundaries of the law they get to try again next year. There need to be consequences for even trying to impose bad faith contracts.

It is legal by default. The question is: why isn't it illegal?

Some quick searching suggests this scenario hasn't been tested in the courts. Like most things, you have to take it to the federal courts and establish case law, OR pass a law (good luck).

It shouldn't be allowed. Microsoft shouldn't allow this, but they do, because they like having revenue from business partners.

> Isn't this malware?

The definition of malware was twisted by the tech giants to exclude their spying practices. Spyware is only spyware if it is not made or blessed by Microsoft, Google or Apple.

Strong "Our righteous telemetery vs Their barbaric spyware" vibes

Microsoft could easily make a rulebook for drivers, and say any company which violates the rulebook can only send open source drivers, or even ban them from driver distribution entirely which would quickly kill a consumer hardware brand.

Microsoft does not care about the quality of Windows. Half the malware comes from them. Windows is just a platform they can sell online services and AI products through.

Yeah but they can only sell online services and AI products through Windows as long as people keep using it. Betting it all on their lock in being strong enough doesn't sound like a good long term strategy.

My Logitech mouse does this but it prompts to install their crapware and adds that to the startup programs, it's not automatically installed.

The last one I remember is plugging a Razer mouse

Oh, yeah. Bought this overpriced but heavily hyped Razer mouse and it wouldn't even work right until it had an internet connection. A MOUSE. I'd never encountered something so blatantly customer hostile in my life. Never even looked at another Razer product, never will, and will tell anyone who will listen that Razer is a terrible company full of objectively terrible people.

Razer was always low quality garbage at premium prices. Gamer marketing for you.

What do you recommend instead? In my opinion the Razer mice are always superior for FPS.

Some Razer mice were somewhat good in the times when the sensor mattered, with the rest of them being absolute garbage (starting with the Copperhead which barely worked). Today there's a ton of niche manufacturers with great internals that will exceed any requirements you might possibly have.

If you're really interested in FPS performance and not just the brand, choose for the ergonomics first, it's not possible to recommend anything without knowing your play style, hand size etc. The shape and weight you like, and complementary feet and mat with the exact static/dynamic friction you need. Then check if the internals are good enough (they likely are) and whether there are any firmware issues like extra jitter on flicks or unavoidable debounce lag, then look at the required software. There's a ton of mice with excellent performance that are configurable without ANY software.

> choose for the ergonomics first

This is unfortunately why I keep buying the Razer Deathadder Pro. It fits my hand perfectly and is super accurate. I hate their software, and the company, but the performance and ergonomics of the mouse are worth it to me.

DA has probably the most widely cloned shape in the market and has many identical or compatible alternatives and clones, check e.g. MCHOSE A7 Ultra RE or Pulsar Xlite v4 Large (never had either so can't vouch for their software)

https://www.eloshapes.com/mouse/compare?p=razer-deathadder-v...

https://www.rtings.com/mouse/tools/3d-model-shape-compare/3d...

I know hardly anything about FPS but the reason I like Razer mice is the hardware macros. Configuration profiles are saved to the device and macros are performed at the hardware level. Some actions work with the razer software but most of them don't have to.

Logitech have always made great gaming mice in my experience, at a reasonable price

Most logitech mice have rubberized outsides which turn to goo after about a year.

Logitech all the way.

Logitech is a truly innovative company. They actually care deeply about ergonomics. They also introduced the first mass market application of programmable magnets (in the MX Master mouse scroll wheel) - that's incredibly advanced materials science.

They also managed to develop a steaming pile of shit called Logi Options+ which you need to set up your mouse (I only used the mac version to be fair)

You don't need it. The mouse functions perfectly fine without it. And you can even switch DPI when the mouse has a button to do that.

The software allows for fine-tuned settings, button remapping, etc. It is awful software, to be sure, but it's not necessary to use the mouse.

I can happily share that there is an open-source alternative, https://github.com/TomBadash/Mouser

I’m no longer sure about their quality though. Out of four Logitech mice I bought recently (four different models), two died within a year. At least their warranty repair/replace process was decent.

Their buttons fail way too easily, but can usually be fixed with some WD-40, CRC 5-56, or any similar thin oil.

What do you do to your mouses to make them fail so quickly? Are you throwing them randomly accross the room?

They just fail. Particularly the office mice don't last very long for gaming (orders of magnitude more travel and clicks)

I use an MX Master for gaming and it's been going strong for years.

Some Logitech mouse switches have been known to fail in normal use.

At least one person has put together a good overview of what they think is happening: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v5BhECVlKJA (details in video description)

Use cats. For all great Logi ergonomics, they fall prey to cat hair; and pads cover the screws, so they can't be reassembled pristine after cleaning. Still, M500s is the best.

Pads over screws seem to be common for pretty much all mice. At least pads can be replaced easily and cheaply, unlike crap switches or wheel encoders.

Actually using the middle click button regularly.

In my family we use the Glorious Model O. My son wanted one ages ago (I got him a mini), and it was so nice, I got one for myself. Now my oldest has a big one, and my youngest uses the mini.

We've had them for years. The mini has lost the button that lets you select speed, but other than that they're still great. For better than the various Logitechs I had before.

The only real downside is the bright flashing led patterns. I've gotten used to them.

Ah, yes, the bigotedly named company.

I had several Marathon mice which broke their 3-year battery life promises, by lasting way longer. I had to retire them since their plastics degraded in some cases after 6-7 years (I had several at one point due to having multiple PCs being used every day for long stretches).

Currently I use their MX Keys Minis, MX Anywhere mice and trackballs. All are rock solid. Bolt receiver works great with Linux via Solaar allowing full suite of features.

Oh, Firmware Update Daemon supports Logitech hardware, too. If Logitech sends in new firmware, it pops up instantly to upgrade.

The switches on my $80 MX Anywhere 3 failed in under 2 years.

80% of a mouse decision should be which form fits best for your hand. Unfortunately for me that's razor mice. (Well, the Viper v2, I dont love the v3 I have now.)

If you can find an original Glorious [0] Model O, that's a nice piece of hardware. The new Model O looks like it only works with their new, totally garbage Glorious CORE v2 software.

If you never want to change the DPIs, lighting, or button assignments, & etc then you don't need the software... so if what the hardware does out of the box is fine for you, then you don't need to worry about how trash CORE v2 is.

CORE v1 is okay, but still notably worse than the Model O software. I don't know why they farmed out the development of CORE v2 to "the CEO's middle-school nephew who's 'good with computers'", but they did.

[0] ...they were originally called "Glorious PC Gaming Race" (in homage to the Reddit meme), but dropped that last bit from their company name a while back...

Model I with four thumb buttons is irreplaceable for me

I also have a Model I and am unhappy with the fact that -when last I checked- you can't configure the three or four extra buttons so they're actually buttons. Your only option is for them to generate keypresses, or do mouse-management functions -such as "cycle DPI"-.

This is... frustrating. Multi-button HID devices are -arguably- easier to do than something that pretends to be both a mouse and a keyboard. I get that some games may not understand how to deal with mice that have more than four or five mouse buttons, it'd be quite nice if I had the option to set things up so that I can use them as buttons in games that know how to handle them.

You literally need two or three mouse buttons for a FPS game. This argument might have worked if you said MMO because there’s a million abilities you can use but there’s absolutely nothing special about Razer mice when it comes to FPS specifically.

Mousereview reddit always recommends looking at Chinese gaming mice, they have reasonable prices, often clone popular mouse shapes from large brands (see [1]) and have the latest sensors.

[1] EloShapes find similar: https://www.eloshapes.com/mouse/find-similar

Just found another mouse shape comparison site that may help:

https://www.rtings.com/mouse/tools/3d-model-shape-compare/

I'd say any cheap mouse off Amazon that has a pleasing shape is usually good enough, but I've also never ranked above gold in any competitive PvP shooter, so there's that :')

I'm currently using a wireless ProtoArc mouse. Good shape, can adjust DPI on the fly, hasn't broken even after a year. I think it was like 30 bucks maybe?

I used to pulverize my friends with a Logitech G700 in Quake3/OpenArena. I'm sure it has a newer version.

Razer was never "definitively better". It's merely competitive with other top ones, that's all. Before G700, Logitech even had a mouse with two sensors and was the undisputed king for FPS quite some time.

Depends on which one and when it was sold. Some razers have pretty outdated sensors, plenty of better, lighter and cheaper options available.

I got an ASUS Rog Gladius III Wireless with my Asus ROG laptop. Thought it was a 'free' crap but damned. It is so good and lightweight. Has 3 modes: wifi, BT, cord. Now at my house we all have Asus Gladius mouses! There are also cheaper versions with just a cable connection. And they work without installing Asus Crap Software Center.

Gamer marketing for you.

Which I fell for. Fool me once and all that...

I had a razer mouse and headphones, which from time to time crashed their driver server or whatever and nothing could help until the cold restart of the PC and a laptop. Razer. Never again.

This. Microsoft has chosen to allow this functionality, despite it being a very clear breach of trust with customers.

LG/Dell/et al should be shamed and blamed for even trying this shit in the first place, but it’s Microsoft who holds the blame for allowing such malware and spyware trash through their own update service.

You’re acting like Microsoft aren’t pushing malware themselves.

How in the world does that absolve Dell/etc, OR reduce Microsoft’s culpability for letting their update service be abused?

That's just a parallel fact, no one's "acting" like anything?

What were you actually trying to say?

I am saying that people here seem to be appealing to Microsoft as an authority that should be interested in stopping this, perhaps because they are morally superior or concerned about their reputation. They are not.

No, Microsoft should be stopping this because Microsoft is doing it, and it is wrong. HDMI does not, to my knowledge, provide a mechanism for loading code: it's Microsoft software looking the product model up in a Microsoft database, downloading the appropriate malware, and executing it with elevated privileges (bypassing UAC).

No, Microsoft inflicted this upon themselves. They introduced driver vetoing long ago specifically for this purpose (at the cost of certain amount of user freedom), and have established the criteria for it, but barely ever enforce most of these criteria that aren't related to hard OS stability (and sometimes even those that are related), because that might upset the vendors.

The Razer one is spot-on. I had a Razer mouse during the Windows 7 days and it kept running the installation setup despite declining it all the time, and it's so bad at times I recall seeing the setup trigger while on an ongoing Windows update when the screen was already locked up.

Logitech did something similar if I recall right.

Microsoft could end up being a higher barrier but how much do we really want that?

To me, it seems like LG is the one to blame.

> Microsoft could end up being a higher barrier but how much do we really want that?

For drivers installed automatically via Windows Update? Absolutely yes.

For software the user installs manually? No.

Microsoft has been coddling big devs (read: the devs that code this absolute garbage) for decades. They have this mentality "if we change anything, and anything breaks for current users, they're going to blame us instead of the vendor" and that might have been useful in the 95 days, but it's outmoded. They need to have the balls to break every vendor in 2026 if they're doing things they shouldn't.

I don't trust Microsoft not to be a modern capitalist, but I trust the companies they enable even less.

Reply on news.ycombinator.com