Comment by monksy | Hacker News Reader

Comment by monksy | Hacker News Reader

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We're running into situations where the usage of smart phones and apps are becoming mandatory for using services.

For example: The UK has a digital ID requirement which is required for you to be employed in the UK. Additionally the EU digital identity services have a hardware/software attestitation that is required to run their apps. (Many of those which 3rd party software can't run).

Another example of this is the Australian eTA - (Everyone has to have a visa to visit Australia.. but the real only way to get a visa* is you have to get an electronic travel authorization which only works via an App)

https://grapheneos.org/articles/attestation-compatibility-gu...

Apps that ban graphene-os being used:

    myGov (Australian government app)
    gov.br (Brazilian government app)
    Ticketcorner
    Authy
    Chyrpe Dating
    TextNow
    mada Pay (Saudi NFC payment app)
    McDonald's (International app used for many but not all countries not including the US)
    Dott
    My SEAT (Connectivity for SEAT cars)
    SwissID
    Volkswagen
    BKK Faber-Castell & Partner
    TK-Doc
    TK-Ident
    TK-App (Blocks access to TK-Safe, TK-GesundheitsMessenger, fingerprint login)
    IO (Italian government app which uses it to gate access to the digital wallet feature)
    PosteID (Italian postal service’s app used to access the national digital identity system "SPID")
    Singpass

> The UK has a digital ID requirement which is required for you to be employed in the UK.

That's untrue.

There was a strong push towards the digital ID from the current administration, but it was abandoned 6 months ago.

What you likely mixed up with digital ID is the old digital visa scheme, mandatory for all non-UK citizens to prove right to work.

Re: your app list: looks a little bit eclectic, so it's worth mentioning most of the apps don't ban GoS specifically, but enforce Google play strong or device integrity pass, which GoS doesn't pass.

Some trip on some exploit protections, like secure app spawning, but these can be turned off per app in the latest releases based on Android 17.

> the old digital visa scheme, mandatory for all non-UK citizens to prove right to work.

Weren't they accepting refugees without documentation?

At some workplaces?

I don't know, probably? That always was an offence[1] anyway.

New scheme, mandatory digital ID, would simply stop Britons from being able to use their physical passport to prove they can work. For everyone else that would swap existing electronic-only scheme with another electronic-only scheme.

I don't think anyone half awake would mistake a refugee with a Brit. At least it's not a problem that would explain introducing a whole huge PITA -- like with mandatory IDs for voting: if I'm not mistaken TWO people total were sentenced for voting-related offences, yet we spend double digits of millions of pounds only to (knowingly) disenfranchise voters traditionally voting against the Conservative government.

Look, I'm a citizen of the EU country and my country's physical ID holds electronic layer containing private keys I can use to remotely sign stuff or authenticate myself. It also allows me to using a digital only ID, and the app ecosystem around that is truly amazing. And I'm a picky one.

Basically it's everything, along with basically every single one European physical ID with electronic layer built-in.

British digital ID was *nothing' of that. If it was a physical smartcard first, optional and not mandatory, I'd probably support it, but the government messaging about that was full of lies and handwaving, especially when people were bringing up the failures of digital only systems like Settled Status for Europeans. Nothing mattered, steamrolling over arguments with soundbites.

No, long story short: no, digital IDs are NOT mandatory and no, employment fraud is not that widespread, and the new system won't fix the employers skirting the law.

[1] https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/illegal-working-p...

GrapheneOS and others should have lobbyists or rather lawyers and lawmakers to fight for using secure systems to mandatory be allowed for these. Sure, there must be some type of OS guarantee, but that should not be exclusive to Google and Apple. And indeed browsers with otp/authn devices (not one per service but yubi/thetis type of thing as those can be made sovereign for a large part); when an OS is not allowed, the browser and app should be mandatory allowed with such a device as that is, actually, more secure than the original device as it is an external encryption and encryption key source the hacker cannot reach.

Us users might be effective as well. Hopefully anti-trust law catches up and bans play integrity. They are probably going to spend their money improving features and experience to get more users. There's threads on the forum dedicated to sending emails to Volkswagen to get them to support Grapheneos and it may be working.

> The UK has a digital ID requirement which is required for you to be employed in the UK.

False

In fact I can't think of a single Government service or legal requirement that requires a smartphone in the UK.

In the past year I have applied for a passport, applied for benefits, opened a bank account, passed through border control, filed a company tax return, closed down a business, helped someone else claim for benefits, made police reports, filed a case with the small claims court, paid my council tax, received an incone tax refund, travelled on public transport extensively, hired a car.

All had alternatives as far as I can recall.

Quite a few were done online just with a computer and optionally a phone number

And based on prior discussions here I have to point out that "require" doesn't mean "ok but the alternative is kind of inconvenient"

> We're running into situations where the usage of smart phones and apps are becoming mandatory for using services.

A new building is being built in my city, and the trash containers which were installed outside have instructions printed on them, indicating that you need to use a smartphone app to take out your trash.

I found this deeply offensive in a way that I cannot explain.

There are breastfeeding pods in airports that require an app and registration to use them as well. (But it's a well known code to use them. 80085 )

This sucks. The solution is to buy the cheepest iPhone and use it just for the goverment services.

The cheapest new iPhone is €720 (iPhone 17e)

It doesn't have to be new. They'll permit using an Android 8 to 10 device last updated over 6 years ago or a similarly old iPhone.

> gov.br (Brazilian government app)

Sucks... At least brazilian banks don't ban it. At least not yet.

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