Grok CLI uploaded the whole home directory to GCS
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I don't think the LLM had anything to do with this decision at all. It looks like the Grok tool starts a session by deterministically kicking off a full upload of the user's current repository (and maybe their directory if not version tracked? Not clear if this user had previously run "git init" in their home directory) to Grok's servers.
One possible "innocent" explanation could be that xAI then run vector embedding on every file to help later provide the right context. I don't think thats a worthwhile tradeoff here, especially since other popular coding agents get by just using grep/ripgrep run locally.
Too many replies here are done before reading it. It is not "just another agent does the agent thing". It is a deliberate choice of the Grok Build team to have a toggle from the server to let the program to upload your entire codebase to a Google Cloud Storage bucket. It is not an agent decision, the program is written by the Grok team, can be dissembled and seeing the logic wild-open.
Trying to use markdown files to limit access should never be treated as a security guarantee at all.
This is a form of in-band signalling that goes into a machine that, among other things, tries to read between the lines of your requests, extrapolate user desires, and please the user.
The only sane way to address this is using a control plane. A well-built harness can do this; a sandbox can do this; hell, a carefully-chosen `umask` can do this; but both of those are liable to introduce notification fatigue in the user.
It's not hard, it's trivial. Most folks here are constantly working with containers. You know how to run a container with a local directory mounted in it.
For myself, I've been using Lima (https://lima-vm.io/) to reduce even that little bit of extra work. Lima works cross-platform leveraging native virtualisation or containerisation, and has some useful capabilities for using agents.
This is akin to politely asking guests to to steal your jewels. If your jewels are in the living room, and your guests have unfettered access to the living room, this technique will only work for the most trustworthy of guests.
This is a new pattern for me, I'm curious what others are doing.
[0] https://pubs.aeaweb.org/doi/pdfplus/10.1257/0002828067772121...
LLMs will listen to you and follow your instructions and restrictions most of the time, which seems to be enough for people to believe that they will every time. I've come to terms with the impact slop coding will have on most software jobs in the future, but seeing seemingly intelligent people fall for lies and fantasies concocted by an LLM is making me more and more uncomfortable with the direction we're all heading in.
sudo -u restricteduser myagent
I don't really have a good mental model of how ports/files/etc get exposed/permissioned across users. Containers and sandboxing seem much more common than agent-user accounts. Networking seems a little more complicated in the general case.
I roughly went the route of running apple's container-cli (separate vm/kernel per instance I believe) and mount the relevant home directory/projects and bind ports. Seatbelt/linux sandboxing seems simpler sometimes, but has its complications too.
You can't trust the agent, let alone its harness, to oberve any particular directive you give it, so "md files" provide no meaningful protection for anything important.
But users are broadly reckless and naive and commercial vendors are exploitative and irresponsonsible, so the vendors take advantage of what they can get away with for as long as they can get away with it.
Use a tight sandbox, and join the chorus loudly when others press on vendors to be make user safety an earnest and hard-to-abandon priority.
If it’s to be trusted, it has nothing to do with the “agent” or what’s sent to the LLM. The harness will just straight up package the folder it’s run from and upload it to Google Cloud Storage.
Even if there is a misunderstanding who is really uploading the directory, the TUI/CLI itself by actual code, or if the model decided to do so in the session, if you apply the recommendations from the replies to parent, and it no longer matter who did it, neither the software nor the model will be able to upload all your ssh keys.
This sort of thing is why I'm hopeful I'll continue to have employment going forward. Some expertise is hard won and there's just no replacing learning through experience.
And the user even paid $99/month or more for having their data leaked.
Of course not.
To me it's on a server, in a VM. And they're not seeing the real data/databases from the actual projects: they're seeing fake infos used only while in the dev environment. There's no way I'm dumping, even for tests, the real or part of the real DB somewhere an AI can see it.
To find bugs (for example), AIs are useful but honestly for code generated by LLMs, I'm thinking about going back to the early copy/paste from the ChatGPT days: because I see so many horrors in the code output by the latest SOTA LLMs that every single line of code they spew has to be checked by someone who does know better.
It's not just an issue of protecting confidential data / preventing spying: we're all discovering that we've got serious sloppy-pasta code problems now.
There's also smolvm which is a nice minimal microvm manager based on libkrun: https://github.com/smol-machines/smolvm. I vibe coded a little shell utility for building and running OCI images for the Pi harness using it (easy enough to do manually, but the automation just makes it a couple quick commands rather than digging through documentation): https://github.com/neuroblaze/smol-pi
That's scary. Really should run it under different user with carefully assigned permissions.
No, there isn't. I just don't understand how naive (or imbecile) people are. The most valuable thing for these companies is people's data used for training, so giving unrestricted access to a tool from them and believing they will never take advantage of it to gobble up whatever they want from your computer, just because they told you they'll never do that, swearsies, is naive, or incredibly stupid.
Insulate yourself, or better yet, go local whenever possible, and there isn't much you can't do local if you have enough patience.
I swear, people hear the word LLM and their brain resets when it comes to good software practices.
Did VMs suddenly stop existing? Kata containers? An RHEL box with SEL?
It's like there's a new technology and everyone suddenly decided to shutoff their brain when it comes to basic security.
The latter can seem to be as good as the former for any amount of time. No outside observation can really prove reliability, only the negative result ("it does occasionally break the rules we expect") would be proof. So it's difficult to trust any claims that it's the former.
And even if it does have some of the former, chances are that the protection you experience is only partially provided on code level, while an unknown amount is still just bootstrap prompting that just works until does not.
The real enforcement has to be done via methods that YOU can't easily bypass, or they will bypass (OS-level prohibitions, etc).
What? No, but the random 3rd party software you run on your computer, must be limited by you in some way, haven't we learned this even after the AUR, npm and LLM shenanigans we've dealt with for decades at this point?
No, don't ask the model "Please don't go outside this directory", you limit the runtime (via VMs, containers, unix permissions, whatever) so it only has access to what it should, not more.
Same goes for any software, not just agents or chat clients or whatever. Any 3rd party software you don't want to have access to your entire computer, you need to run in this way.
You can't gaslight something into not doing something bad. There has to be a hard security control that prevents it doing something bad. And if you don't know what it's capable of because it's non-deterministic then you have to start with a default block everything. This should have never been possible with any sensible design.
On my first point again, ethics and engineering both went out of the window when fast and shiny came along. This is disgraceful.
It needs to be baked into the OS.
At that point, HN users start screeching about it, so it's lose/lose, really.
It's annoying, and often rather infuriating, but I understand that one of the motivations for people buying Apple stuff, is for that very reason, so I'm really sawing off the branch that I'm sitting on, by trying to work around it.
I don’t like piling on especially with security vulnerabilities, but man how many red flags do you need to ignore?
They won’t stop abusing us until we stop using their products.
I didn't really need a second clue.
...it was quite the sting because I bought a Tesla car only 2 weeks prior to that.
I don't use AI at all in my daily life.
Work however will demand you use it.
AI is not here to help people.
For example: seat belts are here to help people (by reducing the severity of injuries & the likelihood of fatalities).
True, but it isn't here to not help people, either.
It's a spanner. Who wields the spanner, makes all the difference.
We've spent the last couple of decades, cultivating a huge crop of ultimate scumbag billionaires, with comically exaggerated sociopathy, and that has filtered down to almost every level of society. They are treated as gods, these days (they certainly think of themselves that way).
It still shocks me (but really shouldn't), on a daily basis, to encounter regular folks, interacting in stores and restaurants, or driving on roads, that mirror the values systems exemplified by our billionaires. Our politicians act that way, and one of their biggest selling points, is normalizing sociopathy (not just the US, either).
The tool analogy is intentionally minimizing, and doesn't capture just how different rented tools with constant surveillance are.
In this way I'm not afraid of letting the agents totally lose on my computer.
Instead of generating patches, this exposes the agent's checkout as a git remote though.
Most similar tools (and I believe your tooling as well?) bind-mount the repository checkout from the host into the container. This was always a source of user and permission errors for me, since you have to align the user ids inside and outside the container. Also, some build tools don't like it when the repo is on a different filesystem (bind mount vs container root) than the rest of the system. So I made rumpelpod just bake the repo checkout into the base image that the container is launched from, and since then I haven't had any issues like this.
For giving the agent access to a docker daemon I found sysbox to work very well. Usually the advice for nested containers is to pass in the host's docker socket into the container. But that would break the outer container isolation completely, since access to the docker daemon is equivalent to root access on the host. With sysbox it's trivial to run a nested docker instance inside the outer container. I haven't tried it with podman yet though. In theory sysbox is just another OCI runtime, but there's probably some tinkering required to get it to work.
I explain a bit more over here: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48893874
docker run --rm -it -v $(pwd):/src -w /src alpine sh
Note entirely perfect, but will be enough against anyone not actively exploiting kernel privilege escalation bugs.
It copies the current Git repo into the sandboxes dir, mounts that copy at /workspace in the container. The original repo is never mounted writable, so I don't care if the agent goes to town/wild in there (peace of mind).
It also builds cached Debian/mise/Elixir/Phoenix images, can start a private Postgres container, publishes selected localhost ports, reuses dependency/build caches, and prints commands on exit for reviewing diffs, exporting patches, applying them back to the real repo, or reopening the same sandbox later. Pi, and OpenCode are configured with proper LLM access keys (derived from my own).
So spinning a new sandbox is a matter of cding into a project directory and run something like: `ai-sandbox --port 4000 --postgres somedbname` or `ai-sandbox --port 4001` if I don't need DB support. Then when running the server in the container I can access it from the host machine to review in my browser.
It brings some extra sandboxing features compared to just a docker container.
For instance it also maps the secrets that the agent harness has access to. And has an allow list for outgoing http connections. And there's a way for agents to request extra access. And once approved by the user from an external cli the policy is updated and hot reloaded.
It's pretty recent. So time will tell how robust it is / will become. What its longevity will be. After all; in a time of LLMs one off experiments are cheap. Longtime nurturing not so much.
But it turns out even in the container, there are footguns that have occasionally made the news by being fired: few projects don't have any external resources and when credentials with any form of write access happen to make it into the container (even if it's just a session cookie) agents might jump at the opportunity.
Or, the internal sandboxing.
- Give the bot it's own machine and only copy to it that which one would want DOGE having access to. Not a virtual machine, the bot will eventually escape. This applies to all bots or agents of all LLM's. Name the node DOGE to remind anyone using it not to share their crown jewels. Come up with a silly name for the agent. Elonious?
- Give it a little RasPi or mini-PC with maximum power savings enabled and no default network gateway.
- Install a self signed CA cert on the DOGE node and force it's traffic through a Squid SSL Bump MitM proxy on the same private LAN to another node with bandwidth limits enabled so that one can monitor what URL's it goes to and what data it is transferring. Configure Squid Access Control Lists to only permit specific domains and optionally URL's, mime-types, sizes, etc...
- Enable custom AuditD rules to watch anything it touches outside of it's sandbox. Send these events to a remote syslog daemon on the Squid server.
- Install Unbound DNS on the squid proxy and enable the DoH (DNS over HTTPS) listener and force all bot DNS queries to use Unbound with query logging enabled.
When the bot attempts to misbehave there will be forensic data to share with the world.
This is probably most important for anyone operating agents on corporate systems. I would suggest corporate security should take interest in this idea so they have a good answer for auditors, insurance companies, investors and customers. A full audit trail of what every agent had access to and ingested.
It's simple sandboxing based solely on unix file permissions. Albeit weak, I find the isolation sufficient. Until I'm shown otherwise it seems like a good compromise given how easy it is.
You can also create iptables rules matching on the user, so this technique is useful for applications where you want to restrict network traffic as well, and don't need stronger or more fine-grained isolation mechanisms.
> Until I'm shown otherwise it seems like a good compromise
Agreed. In my case I went a long way running the Pi harness in a (simple, rootfull) docker container. As the project I worked on relied on a standardized docker compose stack for local dev and testing, I realized I could automate more if only my agent could use docker. Ultimately, the need for docker for my agent grew when testcontainer [2] was introduced in the project. That's when I finally took the time to setup a VM with incus [3], and now I can let the agent go wild with docker inside the VM.
This is at least one example where more isolation is required. Otherwise, the dedicated Linux user, if it works for you, is by far the easiest and most pragmatic solution IMO.
[1] https://docs.docker.com/engine/install/linux-postinstall/#ma... ; https://wiki.debian.org/Docker
If I recall correctly, I did a full system reset before setting it up this way. It's certainly not logged into iCloud etc.
My assumption when asked "do you trust this directory?" is that I am being asked if I am certain I understand what is in the directory and that it won't include some sort of prompt injecting attack. I would never dream that I was consenting to the complete exfiltration of that directory.
I've heard it said that piping curl into your shell is no different to running any other program you've downloaded from the Internet (binary, or otherwise): the maximum possible damage that `example.com/script.sh` could do is exactly the same as `githubusercontent.com/someone/releases/myprogram.exe`. At least with `script.sh` you can easily inspect what the script actually does instead of busting out Ghidra.
It comes down to trust: do you trust Example.com to not serve-up a malicious program (shell script or executable binary)?
Now we take that principle and apply it to Mr. Musk's "MechaHitler" LLM vendor xAI: they have a well-documented history of unnecessary risk-taking - and outright criminal behaviour (child-porn generators are a good thing that everyone should have, apparently?). Would I trust Grok with anything? Absolutely not.
Run any cloud-based AI agents in VM/container and map your host's local folders to guest OS as needed.
Takes more effort that default way, I know.
... that's guaranteed vuln-free, right?
Putting it in ALL CAPS!
The good news is its now just as easy to spin up a sandbox in the cloud for an experiment or coding session than it is on your laptop. Possibly easier since laptop sandboxes aren't as cut and dry as a new cloud VM.
exe.dev is my sandbox infra of choice. You get a new sandbox in literally a second with SSH and a coding agent (Shelley) built in.
I generally drop in in my own binary with toolkit so I can connect Claude or Codex subscription and use their harness.
https://github.com/housecat-inc/scratch
If I was working with newer agents like Grok I'd absolutely experiment on a cloud sandbox before running on my laptop bypassing permissions.
Some/maybe most of the HN crowd, sure, but as a rule ... definitely not. People are generally happy to take whatever the path of least resistance is.
I know quite a few civilians (even C-level people) who "heard openclaw was cool" (or whatever) and downloaded the first installer they found and hit enter/run without thinking twice.
We need to make it easier (and faster and cheaper) to get a secure cloud agent computer than it is to YOLO it on your own computer.
Personally I'm not worried about sharing business code with the model providers. The value of code and IP is decreasing to zero, the only thing that matters is execution on the business front. If they want to steal your business they can do so by rebuilding the idea from scratch.
LLMs going rogue is a thing and shit happens but publishing software that is uploading user directories including ssh keys is insane behaviour on xAIs part (alledgedly)
The whole point of LLMs is that you can stop writing rigorous rules in a programming or config language with hard-to-learn syntax, and can resort to natural language instead. You pay for that with the chance for misunderstandings rising to similar levels as in human interaction. That's the tradeoff. Always has been, always will be.
https://gist.github.com/cereblab/dc9a40bc26120f4540e4e09b75ffb547
Elon did this horrible thing, so I made grok build available for omp with it's own endpoint; Without sending your private repos and secret keys to them.
-
oh-my-pi-plugin-grok-build
Standalone oh-my-pi extension for the xAI Grok Build subscription provider. It adds OAuth login, authoritative model discovery, and OpenAI Responses streaming with the request identity expected by Grok Build.
Install (No-spywares):
omp plugin install oh-my-pi-plugin-grok-build
-
https://github.com/metaphorics/oh-my-pi-plugin-grok-build
Star me if you like it or if you hate spywares, lol.- The sandboxed agent has no access to your homedir, or ANY dir on your machine except what you explicitly give it access to.
- Even with your workdir, it honors .gitignore and refuses to copy in any ignored paths to the sandbox copy.
- The sandboxed agent doesn't have access to your ENV (unless you explicitly pass things through one-by-one).
- Networking can be restricted any way you like.
- Credentials are proxied (currently Claude only), so the agent has access to NO secrets at all.
- You pick the security backend to match your needs (containers, VMs, etc).
- It's FOSS.
What xAI's Grok build CLI sends to xAI: A wire-level analysis (gist.github.com)
507 points | 1 day ago | 202 comments
I don't think it is reasonable to expect every user (including those just starting out with the tools - maybe experimenting, maybe younger/less experienced in general) to think that the tool they're running for the very first time is going to automatically exfiltrate all of their data.
It's a pretty serious fuck-up. This guy tweeted about it, who knows how many didn't even notice. It should have been opt-in, it should give user an indication that it's about to do this, etc.
My two guesses would be one the LLM decided it needed these files for the task or two the user simple asked grok to do it so they could post the tool calls on twitter.
Whose fault is it if someone drives a car without learning how to and injures themselves? On the other hand if the manufacturer has promoted it as one you can drive without learning how to, then whose fault is it?
A lot of users are fine with everything being uploaded. Most people's primary computing device is now a phone that backs up everything to cloud and using apps that are thin front ends over cloud services.
The practice of storing secrets in a .gitignore'd .env.local.json or whatever is a really bad idea and I can't believe that it has become a normalized, acceptable practice in the industry.
https://github.com/swelljoe/flar
It uses bubblewrap to instantly construct a container around just the agent config, auth and history and the project path. The agent or any command it runs can't reach outside of it even if you tell it to (or, more dangerously, a random prompt injection from the web or some third party library or script that the agent runs).
I was using VMs to solve this problem but the temptation to start an agent to work directly on my machine for GUI apps and the like was motivation enough to find an alternative to VMs.
I wouldn't use Grok, became I really don't trust Musk, but even the models I do kinda trust to have good judgement I don't trust enough to let them have unrestricted access to my personal machines and all my credentials.
what is rocks and what is gars?
Our company audited a few AI-based pentesting companies and requested logs. In more than one case, it was sending drop tables for sql query injection checking and other destructive operations.
https://gist.github.com/cereblab/dc9a40bc26120f4540e4e09b75ffb547
Elon did this horrible thing, so I made grok build available for omp with it's own endpoint; Without sending your private repos and secret keys to them.
-
oh-my-pi-plugin-grok-build
Standalone oh-my-pi extension for the xAI Grok Build subscription provider. It adds OAuth login, authoritative model discovery, and OpenAI Responses streaming with the request identity expected by Grok Build.
Install (No-spywares):
omp plugin install oh-my-pi-plugin-grok-build
-
https://github.com/metaphorics/oh-my-pi-plugin-grok-build
Star me if you like it or if you hate spywares, lol.Install with
pi install npm:pi-supergrok
This is why it is important to use open source harnesses instead of shady closed ones.
Reality is, I have seen agents read .env, bash history, keychain (if you let them), etc.
There is quite literally no way you are going to save off just your little secret somewhere it won't be able to read it, all software needs to read it ~eventually~
So it's best to sandbox and reset credentials frequently.
It seems I was not wrong.
Not that I do not use AI. I do: fenced, always pasting my snippets and NEVER giving access to my code. Always from the browser. I know what it can do well and which workflows accelerates for me. But I do not want to think that my whole project ends up somewhere else.
Now you trust a single GH user rather than a company. Fair enough. I just think it's very paradoxical.
This is a stupid stupid thing to "allow," for every party involved here.
You're a stupid programmer if you're letting these things touch your files.
You're a stupid company if you're letting Grok run wild.
We're a stupid industry if we're not warning everybody about how ridiculous this all is.
> We're a stupid industry if we're not warning everybody
Hmm. Annoy everybody just to warn the stupid few?
I prefer the current solution. Leave the targetting to the chatbots.
Not sure which weirdness happened here
Friends do not let friends use Grok...
If you absolutely need to run it as your own user, you should bubblewrap it. I do this for things like Steam, games, or other "blackbox" closed source programs that cannot be reasonably trusted.
I'll just add this to the list of things an AI company could do to guarantee I'd never use them. You know, like the AI referring to itself as Mecha Hitler, making non-consensual porn (even of minors), or deferring to Elon's tweets as authoritative references on topics.
SmolVM can easily run Pi, codex and claude https://github.com/CelestoAI/smolVM
Same tech bro: “Wow I can’t believe they would steal my anime girls!”
Those ssh keys can be used to access private servers
The SSH port itself can be limited by IP in firewalls.
Finally, the SSH private key can be encrypted with a password.
Defense in depth is needed. Storing a ssh private key in plain text with no IP restriction is no different to having a password manager store your passwords in plain text on your HD.
I challenge any agent to do worse than an intern with root access.
I once saw an engineer try to place the blame on his intern for taking down prod. I was sitting in a meeting with the VP of engineering and someone asked if it was ok for some to blame their intern for the SEV, and I remember the VP saying "I'll talk to $director_for_the_interns_mentor". Interns can't take down prod. An intern's mentor willingly watching an intern take down prod is the closest you can get.
News at 11.
Posting a complaint about Elon on Elon's platform and tagging him is ballsy. He tends to limit visibility of accounts who do that.
On the other hand, I specifically had grok try hard NOT to read a known key in the project dir (it only saw the first part using a tool, to verify it was present). So there's that.
Did it really need to read all of $HOME and everything under it?
Relevant read: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48877371
> The practical takeaway for users: your entire codebase leaves (uploaded) your machine unencrypted on each Grok Build invocation, not just files you ask it to read, and no visible setting stops it.
But to write about it publicly, manifesting our ignorance and lack of critical thinking skill? It's an entirely different matter.
There are so many comments in here that are calling for nerfing something widely revered for giving us superpowers. Whether these are bots or not, they’re giving off NPC energy.
If they don’t want to use power tools because they accidentally cut off their finger, then they should just unplug their own power tools and stop clamoring for everybody else’s to be unplugged, too.
No?
Well the model weights, the GPUs, and the context obviously all have to be in the same place, so “sending your project to them” is literally the only thing that could possibly happen, unless you think agents work by fucking magic.
This is the biggest case of PEBKAC in history, maybe ever.
This is the kind of confusion that Charles Babbage could not rightly comprehend, except at those politicians at least had the excuse that computers had only been invented five minutes prior.
Only a buffoon would be confused by the straightforward logic.
If your contention is just that this should upload files one by one instead of all at once, what you want is for providers to facilitate the illusion of privacy.