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Comment by bitwizeshift | Hacker News Reader

Well this is a take.

It’s weird how much the author fixates on Vim being “visible” and implies multiple cursors and features in Sublime aren’t. Just because your brain is trained to not think about it anymore doesn’t make it any less visible.

Multiple cursors aren’t a native feature in many tools, it is still something to learn how to use, let alone effectively — just as Vim key bindings are. Plus, vim is more than just a TUI choice for terminal-only users, it’s key bindings for people that have learned that a keyboard is a natural extension of themselves and would rather not jump back and forth to mice repeatedly — just as “multiple cursors” can be to a sublime user of 15 years.

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That's not what I was saying. I used vim macros specifically as an example, not Vim as a whole.

> I’ve had people tell me how “fun” it was to build a macro to handle some one-off text-refactoring problem. But when I looked at what they were doing and how long it took, my honest reaction was: I could have done that in Sublime in a minute with multiple cursors, or just written a quick script.

and

> What baffles me is that so many people treat that friction—the effort of working around a tool’s limitations—as the “fun” part, and then advertise it as evidence that the tool is great.

If you can affectively use vim macros, then GREAT! But if you cannot, even with using vim for decades, then please don't advertise them as the "fun" part.

The things about multiple cursors is that you think about the processing while doing it, while most people using macros looks at the structure of the text first and then devise the macro. I wouldn’t say the latter is faster, but it’s a different mindset.

And the other thing is that vim has the “dot” command to repeat your last edit. Similar to macros, you think about your local edit first, then about where to repeat it (usually tied to the next item in the search list).

Edit (after reading the article).

Both vim and emacs (which have the steep learning curve) are aimed at power users. It’s best to compare them to professional tools like CAD, DAW, industrial appliances,… The friction when learning is because a lot of users don’t know what’s possible to do or even have the kind of problems that experienced users do (or they fail to perceive them as issues). After a while, it becomes like an extension of your thinking and the tool disappears.

Exactly. And I'm no purist - I'm happy to use "dot" with a mouse if I want to easily repeat an edit in tens of places if they're not nicely aligned or searchable.

One of the things about Emacs and Vim is that you have commands that does things. They all have the same conceptual model. In vim, you have the text objects, the motions, and the counts (and more advanced ones like line and pattern addressing). In emacs, you have the point, the mark, and the arguments (including the universal one) (the advanced ones are which modes are currently active). That’s mostly the internal state that matters when you think about an edit which changes A to B.

You think about the evolution of the internal state and the suitable commands just appears, just like you think of an idea and the suitable words appears. Learning commands is like expanding your vocabulary, not learning how to speak. Learning how to speak is internalizing the aforementioned conceptual model.

> The things about multiple cursors is that you think about the processing while doing it

That visual feedback is EXTREMELY useful because I learn of the edge cases to what I am editing in bulk (usually formatting code or tables or whatever) as I am editing it. When you do a macro, you have to try and get it right, and then try again from the start each time to get it right. `dot` et al are not enough in that regard. So the multiple cursors approach is better not because it's a different mindset, but it produces a different feedback loop to correct mistakes.

If you still prefer the macro approach over the multiple cursors approach, then you do you. But as an example in the article, I have seen people think they are being productive by their own standards, and they really aren't.

> That visual feedback is EXTREMELY useful because I learn of the edge cases to what I am editing in bulk (usually formatting code or tables or whatever) as I am editing it

I do not disagree with that

> When you do a macro, you have to try and get it right, and then try again from the start each time to get it right.

But you are wrong in that, because you assume that visual feedbacks are necessary. They are useful. Using vim and the likes is very much like playing the piano or driving a car. You’re always one step ahead of your actions because translating intent into operations is effortless as they are ingrained in muscle memories. I don’t even look at the cursor much of the time because it will be where I need it. I don’t care for mistakes because they are easily corrected.

Even then, I rarely use macros because they are at the high end of the power spectrum. Only writing your own commands is higher on the list. Easy macros are easy to create, powerful macros are created only when necessary and are worth the carefulness. I don’t think there’s something similar to named registers and emacs counters with multiple cursors solutions. Or the ability to have multiple macros ready to go at anytime (very useful for data cleanup).

You're over-fixating on the misuse of macros and generalize that to make a statement about Vim [1], almost as if that's the only useful feature in Vim. There are more basic editing commands that are much simpler, quicker, and powerful. It's what is actually used most of the time.

Also, getting bulk editing perfect, including the edge cases, is inefficient regardless of the tools you use. For the majority of those cases, I would just combine simple search and replace (cgn), dot repeat (.), and undo plus skip (un) for the edge cases. Then jump back (N) to the edge cases and make manual edits. It's quick, provides instant visual feedback, and requires less cognitive work than trying to process it all at once. And that's the approach people likely have in mind when they mention dot repeat.

[1] Or at least stepping right close to it.

> I’ve had people tell me how “fun” it was to build a macro to handle some one-off text-refactoring problem.

I can't relate, either as a Vim user myself or having heard other users.

To the extent that it happens, it's surely because the macro can be seen as a sort of programming. Vim offers you two esoteric programming languages, if you want to see them that way: vimscript obviously, and the simple concatenation of Vim commands. But any system consisting of a text editor plus a way to record and play back its commands gives you the latter. Vim isn't doing anything special to create that second esolang; it's just bundling the playback mechanism.

But that rather is the point: creating the macro is as much "scripting" as actually using vimscript is. Not only is it recorded in an at-register, but it can be stored as plain text in a vimrc file. It should be compared to "written a quick script" and not to "used multiple cursors"; and any sensible Vim user would have a different approach (commonly powered by :%s/foo/bar/g , perhaps with backreferences) to the cases where Sublime's multiple cursors shine. (Yes, you can use visual-block across multiple lines if everything lines up; and yes, it's inferior to a real multiple-cursor system; and no, I don't think I've ever personally had a use case for it.)

There are people who reach a level of proficiency where they enjoy the challenge of an intentionally difficult to use programming language. Vim macros are accidentally a programming language, and definitely not intentionally difficult. And using them to "handle some one-off text-refactoring problem" is entirely missing the point, and a sign that one has more room to grow in proficiency and a lot more room in wisdom.

In short, the people you've heard this from should not at all be taken as representative of Vim users.

What I find especially weird is that I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone describe vim as a puzzle that's fun to solve. The most common sentiment is that it has a learning curve, but ends up being worth it.

> I'm not sure I've ever heard anyone describe vim as a puzzle that's fun to solve.

Search for “vim puzzle” and you’ll find entire websites dedicated to it. Here’s a random one: https://vimventure.dev/

Specific enthusiasts enjoying something is different from telling beginners that "vim is a fun puzzle to solve".

My intro to vim was a guy using some kind of web browser in vim, or maybe it was a browser with vim controls, and I was like wtf. But I did end up using vim for just code/text editing without any fancy macros, it was worth.

I don't think of vim as a puzzle, but I do use it because I find it fun to use in some ineffable way. Note that I also don't claim that it makes me more productive; I use it because it sparks joy, regardless of however productive it makes me.

From the article:

> multiple cursors really are better than macros 99.999% of the time (since they give direct visual feedback)

I don't know what he means, vim macros also give direct visual feedback while writing them. You just edit as normal while recording, and replay those edits later. I think it is technically possible to write a macro without seeing the live effect on the text as you write it, but I've never done that.

I looked up multiple cursors out of interest, I guess the advantage is that it's one interface that is easy to explain. I would use multiple vim commands to replace it in practice.

I'll agree that multiple cursors are maybe better than macros for most of the things that someone would use multiple cursors for, but usually I wouldn't use macro's.

But I think most of the things I do with macro's cannot be done with multiple cursors.

I would be very interested in being proven wrong, if someone has some examples of "this is where multiple cursors are great, and vim doesn't have a good alternative".

> You just edit as normal while recording, and replay those edits later.

And there is the problem. The first time you do the edit, it might be fine, but when you make a mistake in the edit, you then have to go back and correct all of the cases. With multiple cursors, I am seeing instant visual feedback on all instances of the cursor at once. I am getting literally 2D spatial information, compared to the 1D spatial information per each replay. The multiple cursors approach is better not because it's a different mindset or whatever, but rather it produces a different feedback loop to correct mistakes.

Its weird because vim has multiple cursor mode as well

Agreed. I used to enjoy vim macros, but ever since switching to Helix I reach for its multiple cursors all the time and barely use its macros. But that doesn’t mean multiple cursors don’t have a learning curve, I still need to think of he method to place the cursors in the right places.

I think I noticed halfway through reading that most of this is AI nonsense.

Ginger Bill is not AI-friendly so that's absurd.

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