Why American ambulance rides are so expensive
davidoks.blog
davidoks.blog
>This meant that the payment structure and the cost structure were increasingly mismatched: and so ambulance services had to pay for their round-the-clock readiness by billing for individual rides. [...]
>And notably, the fees that Medicare sets run far below cost. The average ambulance transport costs $2,673 to provide; Medicare pays only about $329 of that. A typical ambulance ride for a Medicare patient, in other words, loses theambulance service thousands of dollars.
I think this ignores the 400 pound gorilla in the room. Why does an ambulance transport cost thousands for the operator? This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride. At first one might say that's flippant - obviously ambulances are specialized vehicles, and you have paramedics, and they need to get to locations quickly, and so forth, but let's consider those costs.
A new, fully equipped ambulance is about $150k. Of course this is more than a regular car, but by a factor of 5, not 50. Let's be generous and presume the ambulance fully depreciates in 2 years. Typically an ems crew will be two paramedics. Average paramedic wage is about $23/hr. Again, not orders of magnitude more expensive. Then you have liability, both for the vehicle and for the medical treatment; that's about $12k per year. Throw in money for gas and wear and tear, which should be quite comparable to other automobiles, and it costs about $1600 to own and operate an ambulance for 24 hours.
Now the other side of the equation is utilization. Taking the arbitrary example of Philadelphia Fire Department, they have 60 ambulances that handle on average 700 ems calls per day, and approximately 70% of ems calls lead to transport, so that's about 8 transports per ambulance per day. So distributing this all out, the actual cost to the ambulance operator, ignoring overhead, ought to be somewhere around $200.
I'm sure there are some additional costs I haven't included in this back of the envelope calculation, and maybe some of the numbers I pulled off google are off a bit, this should be taken as a very rough estimate. But even if you significantly increase the cost, the medicare payment amount seems quite reasonable to cover the expenses with a healthy profit margin. Unless you want to claim that operating an ambulance is less than 10% of the cost of ambulance transport, and that the estimators with Medicare are absurdly out of touch with reality, whence cometh $2,673?
Is it $2600? Probably not. But I think you are low-balling pretty significantly.
Put another way, just getting a plumber to vibe to your house is gonna cost you $200 easy. It’s within reason that an ambulance ride might cost much more than that.
https://www.redcross.org/about-us/news-and-events/news/10-wa...
There is zero reason to compare cost of ambulance rides to a plumber and "vibe" on how much more expensive an ambulance ride instead of actually looking at the component costs. They aren't remotely related and one tells you nothing about the other.
Both the actual analysis you responded to and this one are also missing the fact that the ambulance is already subsidized and that usage fees aren't actually paying for the ambulance which makes the fees charged more onerous yet.
It might be instructive to look at what Canada charges non-residence as non-residents pay the unsubsidized rate of about $400-$600 Canadian.
https://www.cma.ca/resources/healthcare-real/answers/healthc...
A plumber charges you $200 to come to your house, it costs the plumber $20 to come to your house. The latter value is what we're discussing here.
As to your specific $200 quote, which others have attempted to refine, it can't be a coincidence that you come up with that number and the Medicare number is $300+, which, if your $200 is even somewhat accurate, seems like a perfectly fair gross margin on what's being delivered. Imagine if the government actually reimburses for cost plus a decent profit margin! Unthinkable the gov could somehow be accurate in their reimbursements.
Edit: spelling
Check out the "No Surprises Act"
https://www.cms.gov/priorities/key-initiatives/hospital-pric...
Stand by cost are about 154 euro/hour. E.g. for sport events.
ICU transport is about 2500. All are law mandated.
The total cost might be more as the insurers also put in undisclosed amounts and some cost is shared with the emergency departments at the hospitals.
https://digitechcomputer.com/costs-of-ems-readiness/
Looks like of the $1954 they estimate for a transport (already quite a bit below TFAs $2673), $1582 is salary. Given that we established the crew in the ambulance are taking home about $140 per transport between them, this seems bonkers. Capital, medical supplies, and fleet maintenance are a whopping 6% of the "cost".
Dispatch, maintenance, janitors, HR, managers.
They also need continuous training, and that is also a large salary cost for training staff (you have to pay them and the trainer).
For that, $1500 seems pretty reasonable. In a place like the US, labor costs often dominate the total cost of many goods and services.
And remember, you have to pay the staff while they are sitting there waiting for a call that may never come. According to the OP's article, the ideal utilization is 30-50%, because you don't want a situation where there's a surge in requests and you don't have an available ambulance. So you're paying people to sit around and wait for a call, and, under normal conditions, you'll have 50-70% of that pool of people not ending up needing to take calls at all.
Also your article includes under salaries:
> Regular, overtime, vacation, and holiday pay for all EMS staff, including EMTs, paramedics, chiefs, 911 call technicians, dispatchers, and support staff
That's not just the 2-3 people on the ambulance during trips. That's a lot more people required to make the entire system work.
Otherwise, yeah, I suspect the other major cost is the "It's the mayor's brother's business" cost and the "private equity has figured out how to extract maximum value" cost.
That said, there's no reason the patent should be charged anything. It should be entirely a tax burden of the citizens. It's crazy to make some decide between death and crippling debt.
liability, both for the vehicle and for the medical treatment; that's about $12k per year.
Insurance on my SUV is close to $3,000 a year, but with the understanding I drive it about 12k miles, and I'm not allowed to speed or run red lights whereas they're guaranteed to be speeding, and driving it around all day and maybe all night. And the ambulance is worth 5x as much as my car is. So I'd be shocked if the combo of their auto insurance + insurance against being sued for rescuing someone wrong is that cheap.
This is definitely not true. A base model unequipped ambulance may be in that ballpark. A fully equipped ambulance will vary wildly in cost based on clinical level but will be about $250-500k in the US.
> Then you have liability, both for the vehicle and for the medical treatment; that's about $12k per year.
Maybe for BLS or non-emergency ambulances in a low-utilisation role? For ALS/Critical Care or higher in a busy jurisdiction it's going to be significantly higher.
A new ambulance will probably run 2-4x what you quoted. Gas/maintenance will not be comparable to a regular automobile; it will be significantly higher. Paramedic wage (though there will probably be more "cheaper" EMTs out there than paramedics) seems right, maybe a little high for some markets. $12k for liability seems shockingly low; I wouldn't be surprised if you're off by an order of magnitude.
Regarding salaries, you're not just paying for the people in the ambulance. You're paying for dispatch, operators, support staff, administration, etc. You're also paying them 24/7, not just for the times that the ambulances are actually making trips.
You also left out the cost of medical supplies and equipment, both of which need to be maintained and replaced.
Paramedics and EMTs aren't the same thing. Private ambulance crews running "dual ALS (advanced life support, i.e. paramedics)" are _exceptionally rare_. Normal staffing is Paramedic and EMT, and most often there are crews that are dual EMT.
Average EMT wage is actually about $18/hr (and in much of the south you can be looking at $15-16/hr).
However where wages do go up, but not in a good way, is overtime. The agency I worked would happily schedule you for 36 or 48 hour _shifts_ and had no weekly hour limit beyond "You must take an 8 hour break after 60 hours of shift", I kid you not - and many people will regularly work 72-96 hour weeks.
The big thing is that private EMS writes off a lot of bills and pushes the balance on everyone else. The holy grail for private EMS agencies is "inter facility -out- of a hospital", as oftentimes the hospital pays the ambulance bill and charges the patient.
You also have to be careful looking at FD provided _transport_ as billing for this is often subsidized by property taxes. There are FDs who will charge for treatment and for transport, for transport only (not for treatment), or for neither (my FD did not charge - but there were also differing policies on when we transported, not by default, so you had people literally - and understandably - peeking out their window to see if it was a red FD ambulance/medic unit outside, or a white private ambulance).
Even above and beyond that, there are a LOT of disposable costs you never recoup. Bedding, blankets, gloves, etc.
> This is a short trip in an automobile, essentially a fancy uber ride.
That is a little flippant, as you acknowledge... good way to offend any paramedic or EMT. I've delivered babies en route to a hospital, including breeches. CPR. Emergency airways.
> A new, fully equipped ambulance is about $150k.
Not any more. Thanks, private equity. You can easily be looking at $400K. And they are vehicles that are driven hard, and cold, and maintenance sucks as a result. No warm up times for engines. Private ambulance, it's common to see rigs with 300,000+ miles on them.
> Then you have liability, both for the vehicle and for the medical treatment; that's about $12k per year.
Not for the medical treatment, no. You can get insurance privately as a paramedic but those policies are generally excess/umbrella style or are specifically "occasional only". The last private agency I worked at with a dozen paramedics and 50+ EMTs had at least mid 6 digit insurance bill.
> Throw in money for gas and wear and tear, which should be quite comparable to other automobiles
For a vehicle that can weigh 10,000lb+, that gets started and stopped often 30 times a day, a lot of time driven "foot to the floor" with an attitude of "it's got to get where it needs to go"? No, although one of the first thing any halfway decent sized agency quickly learns to build out is its own full shop and multiple mechanics (my friend is the Head Mechanic at a local county fire agency and oversees 8 FT mechanics and an auto electrician).
This jumped around a lot, I apologize, and I don't mean to shout you down, at all, but, lest you think I'm defending this state of affairs, I am not, in no way, shape or form.
There are a ton of other costs. You're not paying for one employee. You're paying for many since ambulances run 24/7. They are also driven hard which means they require more maintenance. The ambulance is also full of expensive equipment and supplies.
My LLM of choice says it actually costs $1000-$2500 per ride to the company for operational costs on top of per-ride costs. You can probably ask one for a breakdown and see if it makes sense to you
[1] Oh, holy crap, I just got why ambulances are called that
Which, notably, are so common, because it is financially ruinous to not do it.
They can’t decline transport for anyone with an emergency, regardless of ability to pay.
The people who own ambulances typically have a little cartel like business in a region and print money. They refuse to sign insurance contracts so they are almost always out of network and will not accept direct insurance payments.
When my wife had cancer, she ended up at a hospital that didn’t have the services she needed becuase the ER was full at the trauma center hospital. I was able to arrange a transfer, and paid $1800 for a drive that was approximately 12 city blocks. We had to do that to avoid a complication with hospital admission and coverage. The crew was cool and we did get to honk the siren.
Air ambulance is worse.
We need a regulatory body that can fine people for making analogies this bad
What on earth would you consider normal for a helicopter ride from Exeter to London?
That's roughly 150 miles as the crow flies. Pilot, co-pilot and a medic, minimum crew for say 1.5 hours. Each way, so 300 miles of fuel and aircraft lifetime and three hours of crew cost, not to mention ground crew etc.
My dad got that on the firm when the shit hit the fan and he needed to be seen by specialists in the Royal Brompton and Royal Devon and Exeter decided that was his best shot at life. That was 15 years ago.
Anyway, the OP's bill looked pretty normal until the 11,000 base rate nonsense. How can that possibly be justified?
They can't make money on some customers (medicare/insurance), so they have to make up the difference however they can. In practice this means screwing over the people who have assets to seize.
But even more, it's completely false that the reason an ongoing, working business charges a huge price to some people is that some other people are taking money from them. A business charge people huge prices when it can. Businesses make as much money as they can.
It is true that what health care providers charge individuals tends to be their "opening offer" to insurance companies so they do make this exact argument "we gotta make all our profits on you 'cause everyone else is denying us" but that doesn't make such arguments any more reasonable.
Estimate for an ambulance call is about £450. I suspect the main reason the US costs more is wages.
UK – Newly Qualified Paramedics (Band 5): £28,407 – £34,581. USA - $38,000 to $48,000: £28,323 – £35,777
Sure, there's a bunch of different tax treatments and work-benefits between the countries, but I don't think it's the cost-of-labour that is making the USA more expensive.
This just happens to be the case where you must transport people but most people are net losses. In this scenario, the only surviving companies would be those who charge the remainder sufficient enough that the blended population of clients causes a net pay-in. Everyone who doesn’t account for that will just go out of business.
Being available constantly could be helped with a retainer, it’s true, but even with that we should expect that some patients pay a lot if they’re rarer than the loss-makers.
Those calls essentially cover the base business expenses.
The options model matters: if you model an ambulance ride as a roulette wheel, you only expect to pay if you get very unlucky. If you model it as an option, you expect to pay even if you never use it. The former doesn't imply "everyone else should have to pay for my bad luck"; the latter does. It's effective persuasion.
There are plenty of services that have high fixed costs but low marginal costs, but we don't use the "options" framing. A movie costs tens to hundreds of millions to make, but otherwise costs very little to deliver. Their price are also fixed, rather than dynamically priced. Yet when a movie bombs, nobody is like "wow I guess they shouldn't have been selling an option for 2 hours of entertainment for $20!". It's a price problem, first and foremost, caused by insurance companies and medicare strongarming them.
Idk, my takeaway is ambulances look like a solid market for a subscription model. Ideally, one that taxpayers pay for. But also, potentially, as a private one that you can pay e.g. $50/month to know you won't be billed $12,000 by idiots.
As an EMT if you're A&Ox4, alert to time, place, person and event, you make the choices. You do sign a release so we have proof we didn't abandon you, but you make the choice. If we move you without your approval, it's kidnapping or entrapment (not hit me up law arguers). To do that we either need implied consent (minor no parent, not A&Ox4, or Law Enforcement).
My department, a small rural one with a small tax base which happens to cover a lot of injuries because we have 20 miles of dangerous mountain pass freeway and a ski and mountain bike area, only charge for calls if we transport. I think a transport is around $900. Our minimum transport is 37 miles. We scale it down depending on income and type of event. We're not massive sticklers about it. We're just trying to cover wear and tear on big expensive vehicles for all the non-transports, winter driving, equipment, uniforms, training, etc. Most of our "business" comes from "transients" eg folks who don't live there, eg those skiing, hiking, biking, or driving over the pass.
This is also very much not the norm. But should explain a bit about those who do pay are covering those who don't.
We don't want a chilling effect on calling 911 for precautionary stuff. We'd rather show up 99 times and check people out and let them go than miss the impending cardiac event. And we get those. It's very interesting just how much going over a 4k foot pass stresses people on the edge. Many of our medica calls are people driving to seattle for deeper care and things exacerbating when they get to 4k feet.
The (fairly obvious) answer to that no one should be in that situation. It's horrible. Society should find a better way to pay for ambulances. Most of the world has accepted that some system to spread the cost among everyone is better than putting people in that situation.
Society has this figured out, at least a decent solution that works until we find a perfect one. Only the US society seems to be unable to find a solution.
Unwilling. It's absolutely feasible to find a solution, as seen everywhere else in the world.
IIRC if you look at the cost of Medicaide, Medicare, VA, and other federal and state spending it's the same as most other countries per capita or as a percent of GDP. The US taxpayer pays about as much as Canadians to fund their public system, then pays the same amount again for private cover since it's not universal.
No I'm not making a typo. Medicare, Medicaide, and the US system is such a rip off that per capita Americans are paying similar tax dollars to their joke of a public system.
But no one wants to fix it. US doctors are overpaid. US nurses are over paid. Dug companies. Admin. Lawyers. Everyone who makes the system work, and everyone who makes the system a mess are paid a fortune for it.
No people shouldn't be bankrupted for a short cab ride that's not needed. I'm not arguing that.
I can’t imagine it’s gotten cheaper.
The anecdote illustrates the issue then he dives into the analysis.
I know that John Oliver is a bit of a “lightning rod,” for many folks, but he (or his staff, really) does his homework. He did a segment on it, some time ago: https://youtube.com/watch?v=Ezv8sdTLxKo
I guess my point is, sometimes you don't have a choice, but you still end up with a massive bill. And also, that experience definitely had a chilling effect on me calling 911.
Instead of punishing people for seeking medical care (or plainly requiring it), it would be preferable to have a robust protocol for rejecting patients that do not require care, whether at the hospital or before the ambulance ride.
For this, people would need to want medical care be a humanitarian right and basic pillar of a functioning society, not a business or a bureaucratic system to perform a selection process decreasing the life expectancy of less-affluent people.
Ironically, when there is free medical care and universal insurance, there are also perverse incentives. For example unneeded expensive procedures, prescribing patented, newer drugs where cheaper ones would work, providing ineffective or even detrimental services, etc.
But humanitarian values are out of fashion, because they were never achieved globally.
So the only right people care about increasingly is their right to own property.
You end up just building the lawsuit against you.
Americans love to pretend that healthcare can somehow be a free market (it can't), but a free market requires voluntarily entering into a transaction. Costs that can be forced upon you without your agreement need to be tightly regulated and subject to clear caps.
That touches on another very american problem. The injured person now does not know how much the tansport/treatment will cost. And the only persons on the ground cannot quote a price. If they say yes they enter into that zone of having another random health care bill comming in the mail. Is it 900, or 9000? Will my insurance cover this? Is this outside my deductable? ... this is math that no person should have to do while bleeding beside a highway.
I was fully aware when the ambulance arrived and refused. They peer pressured me very hard anyways. It was a 1 mile drive and cost me $14,000
I was sent a post insurance $8000 bill. After months and months of arguing they said it was an error on their side and dropped the charge. Absolutely ridiculous
No US doctor would ever tell you how much any procedure would cost (even though they know, at least "in-network" doctors).
But if in your EMT you inform the patient of the potential costs of the ride, then yea, I agree they make an informed choice.
I had fractures several times, and I did think about the costs. In fact, the last one was pretty bad, andy first thought was "good thing I'm in a country with good medical care, even though expensive".
Disagreed. Someone who is cogent and not intoxicated and not a stroke victim can't always make the best choices. Your decision making can be compromised by I dunno the fucking pain of a broken toe bone.
Seeking help should not be interpreted as a sign of weakness and made into a maze where only the most rational can escape with minimal bills. The longer we leave this cognitive dissonance where the land of the free roughly translates to land of the free to get fucked we are going to continue to have instability.
Consent for treatment is a core principle of medical practice.
The author does not understand how private equity extracts money. The high-liability and heavily scrutinized business is intentionally left with little profit: the actual profits are funneled up the supply chain. This is why private equity buys "nonprofit" hospitals - they can now control who that nonprofit buys services and equipment from.
Essentially, the bills are always inflated so when the settlement comes the providers get 20..50%. The crucial procedure is so called "medical coding" where medical notes (sometimes - scrawled on paper with a pencil) are being turned into bills - and that's where additional codes are getting added and more expensive codes are selected. There are books and guidelines on how to do the coding and some automated logic which "fixes" filled forms to bump the amounts a bit.
If the insurance (less frequently - the patient) pays more - that's just a bonus.
Billing itself gets a small fraction of the bill usually amounting to $20..50, they don't profit from inflated bills directly but the clients would select you on the basis of average settlements. Dispatchers also get little fractions. Things are very different when it comes to helicopter ambulances, where the bill could easily get to hundreds of thousands and everyone involved gets a lot. In fact, all the operators prefer to work with helicopters because of that, everyone involved references ground operations as "crap" or so.
Can't say for whole industry but that's what I've seen at one particular place working with several providers/dispatcher companies.
From what I can remember about the ground reality, a $12K bill would mean that they expected to actually get $3..4K. A typical ground bill for some particular region the company operated at was settled at $500..$2K while an average helicopter bill was smth around $200K if I remember correctly, with spikes up to $500K.
Those numbers made me blanch somewhat! Having been in a helicopter (aka Air Ambulance) in the UK, all of which operate as charities iirc, I was curious about their costs.
> The average cost of a helicopter mission is £4,748* and the average cost of a critical care car or rapid response vehicle mission is £2,054*[1].
https://www.airambulancesuk.org/about-us/facts/
eesh
FWIW I think that HEMS cost is significantly under costed, as the London HEMS H135s run about £2,500 per flight hour on direct flight costs alone, so I suspect the £4,748 figure is referring to that alone.
I think a closer estimate is probably total annual operational costs divided by total shouts, (£18 MM / 2,000) or about £9,000 per shout.
Even that's an under costing, as the clinical personnel, equipment, and liability is shouldered by the NHS. A pure costing is probably closer to 2-3X that per clinical flight.
Still an order of magnitude less than the commercial US operators.
Also found this intriguing in your source:
> London’s Air Ambulance crew made history in 1993 by performing the world’s first successful pre-hospital open-heart surgery at the roadside.
The $500K spike was some sort of a highway accident response, can't recall any additional details apart from some serious head/brain trauma.
Keep in mind that everything gets significantly inflated, x2 multiplier is guaranteed, x5 is likely, x10 is not uncommon. Again, from what I can remember.
Also keep in mind that billed != settled. If I recall correct, that bill was settled at something around $55K. That was many years ago.
So of course, my insurance would only pay some small pittance, if anything, and I was sent a ~$1000 bill. I immediately filed a complaint with the insurance company's California regulator (at the time it was the Dept of Insurance for this one, but it seems most or all now are under the Department of Managed Health Care) since insurance companies are by law obligated to pay at the in-network rate in the case of an emergency (which presumably is why you call an ambulance in the first place). Within 2 weeks I received a letter from the insurance company that all was completely fine and that they'd corrected the situation and paid the bill.
So we have an insurance company which surely knows that law, surely knows what an ambulance is for, but has discovered the "life hack" of having an extremely inadequate network, simply refusing nearly every ambulance claim made in the City, and then only paying the small percentage who know the law and know how to file a complaint. And of course, there's no punishment, the punishment is just having to pay the few times they're caught.
And insurance companies wonder where all that anger (Delay, Deny, Depose, was it?) comes from.
Anyway, practical moral of the story: don't let them get away with doing that if it happens to you or someone you know!
Note: My story is obviously kind of tangential to the actual article which explains why the cost is so high due to everyone who's being subsidized by what they're charging privately-insured patients. However, I have but the world's tiniest violin for those extremely profitable insurance companies who would obviously really like one of their costs of doing business to just go away. Yeah, I'd also like it if I could be paid my full salary, even though I refuse any work I find annoying.
> discovered the "life hack" of having an extremely inadequate network
If the insurance company weren't cynically exploiting people's lack of knowing their rights, they'd at least send a form letter to the patient saying "Please send us whatever proof from the hospital that you had a legitimate emergency and if approved, we'll pay <insert details> percent." Instead, they pay nothing, shove their fingers in their ears, and let the balance bill come to the patient, and hope nobody tells on them.
The only ambulance rides that should be billed like this are frivolous ones, like if someone is rear-ended at 1MPH, are unharmed, and they lay on the ground and fake an injury and demand to be transported to try to support a fraudulent legal case.
The number of times we'd have to hang out at the charge nurse's desk because the physician had scrawled a signature at the bottom of the form and nothing else, etc., was ... staggering.
If that doesn't give that reasoning (unable to stand steady, fall hazard, need for continuous O2, etc., etc., etc.) then no pay. And many insurers would use that same paperwork, not just Medicare. Could we fill it out ourselves? No. I'm not risking my EMS career to be at the center of a "ambulance company employees charged with medicare fraud" news story.
Family members have been in ambulances a few dozen times over the decades. There is no concept of a bill or paperwork for it. Like borrowing a book from the library.
It took 5 times of me calling and explaining that they can’t charge it as out of network before they adjusted it.
It could have been Cigna -- I've cycled between probably every possible insurer during my career. Dirtbags, the lot of them.
> I immediately filed a complaint with the insurance company's California regulator (at the time it was the Dept of Insurance for this one, but it seems most or all now are under the Department of Managed Health Care) since insurance companies are by law obligated to pay at the in-network rate in the case of an emergency (which presumably is why you call an ambulance in the first place). Within 2 weeks I received a letter from the insurance company that all was completely fine and that they'd corrected the situation and paid the bill.
What annoys me the most about this story: There should be a disportionately large penalty that the insurance must pay to the health care regulator for cases like this. It would discourage this kind of illegal behaviour.
What percentage of patients are likely to be taking ANY action that leads to insurance paying? Either spending (as someone else shared) 5 phone calls trying to convince them, or knowing what regulator to file a complaint with - those are the only options. All other options involve someone else eating that cost. I bet less than 10% get them to pay, so the fine should start at $10,000 - and escalate if they show no improvement.
Besides this kind of billing is banned in California now https://leginfo.legislature.ca.gov/faces/billHistoryClient.x...
The insurers just pay the in-network fee and you call it a day.
I think I’m realizing that what I cherish about the healthcare system up here is not just that I don’t pay bills, but that I don’t even see a bill. Not that the bankruptcy inducing costs aren’t wretched, but I just cannot even imagine being put into a fucked up bureaucratic hell while my family is in a life altering crisis.
Anecdote: my uncle and BIL are auto mechanics. One in the US, the other in Scotland. Similar lifestyles - both own homes, have mechanical hobbies (vintage cars for one, Harleys for the other) - typical working class lives. The uncle in the UK just has much less mental overhead when it comes to major life planning.
Would your wife have been in a different location if you had made the call?
Falck has found a workaround: Bill emergencies as "non-emergency" so they can balance bill. This is, of course, fraud. I'm sure that enough don't understand the law that this makes them a lot of money.
PS: An average net salary in that city was about $1700/month at the time.
You have claimed it isn’t, but you haven’t really provided much evidence other than “there’s no way that’s true, trust me, I used to work somewhere in healthcare finance”
That being said, we also have private ambulance companies here that will sting you for a huge bill if you don't have private ambulance cover.
If only ground ambulances were as universally awesome
- the patient was _forced_ to take an ambulance to another hospital, but not to be treated for anything in particular.
- the post goes into how the EMS system is expensive b/c you need trained paramedics and expensive medical equipment and such -- but sometimes they really do just need to move a patient, not treat anyone in the field or en route. Saying that you pay for the paramedics even when you're effectively just being moved between facilities _also_ seems wasteful.
Yes, we should share the cost. But once we all share the cost, maybe we should try to spend the public dollars effectively by only using ambulances when they're needed, and distinguishing between "transport patient who can't sit upright and buckle a seatbelt" and "try to stop their arterial bleeding as you speed towards the hospital".
Perverse incentives are the essence of what is wrong with US medical systems.
The blog mentions it, but it’s one of those obvious things that somehow isn’t solved yet and blows my mind every time it comes up.
We hope to set the rates such that folks won't have to pay at all if they have insurance or will only have to pay the gap amount insurance would have covered.
I'm collecting the data to figure out how many residents, how many businesses, and how many college students there are in the region and match that to the call volume for those same categories so that each group pays a fair share.
We're basing the legal structure in the MESA group from Lancaster PA. Public fee hearings with residents hopefully start this Fall, and then we're hoping to go live Jan 2027.
I will say I've been surprised how extremely expensive it is to run EMS. Even with 25% of our responders being volunteers, the costs are staggering. Insurance, equipment, medicines, payroll, billing, fuel, building maintenance, heating and cooling.
The vehicle maintenance would turn your hair grey. We have a vehicle in the shop almost every single day. And we have two volunteer mechanics trying to do fixes in house. But these ambulances just are absolutely beat to hell 24 hours a day. My partner is one of the mechanics, and she sometimes gets a half dozen vehicle maintenance reports a day! And we only have 7 vehicles!
And then you have to factor in deprecation on an asset that effectively drops to $0 after 5 years. And costs $300k to replace.
We pinch every penny we can think of, but the end effect is that we're trying to provide a service that's extremely expensive and so we hope this model will diffuse those costs across the whole population (which we expect will turn out to be something like $100/year per family).
Cross your fingers because this feels like our best option
The thing about unfettered private health is that it finds "profit centers" and pumps them ruthlessly. But the problem when scheme/scam gets reigned in (say out-of-plan doctors), another appears (out-of-plan ambulances) and there's no end to the situation. Only actual state sponsored health care can end this.
Tangentially (think in systems), much of the US exists off of volunteer emergency services (fire and emt), which is rapidly evaporating. Average age of these volunteers is mid 50s.
https://www.nfpa.org/news-blogs-and-articles/nfpa-journal/20...
> For generations, volunteers have formed the backbone of the nation’s emergency response system. Roughly half of the U.S. population, some 170 million people, live in areas primarily served by volunteer departments. Unpaid firefighters comprise more than 60 percent of all U.S. firefighters, and more than 80 percent of the country’s fire departments are either all or mostly volunteer.
https://www.ruralhealthresearch.org/publications/1596
> 4.5 million people lived in an ambulance desert (AD); 2.3 million (52%) of them in rural counties. Four out of five counties (82%) had at least one AD. Rural counties were more likely to have ADs (84%) than urban counties (77%). Areas with the highest share and number of people living in ADs include the Appalachian region in the South; Western states with difficult mountainous terrain; coastal areas across the U.S.; and the rural mountainous areas of Maine, Vermont, Oregon, and Washington. Eight states had fewer than three ambulances covering every 1,000 square miles of land area (the Western states of Nevada, Wyoming, Montana, Utah, New Mexico, and Idaho; and the Midwestern states of North Dakota and South Dakota).
Choosing to live far away from others is also choosing to live far away from help.
If a service is highly variable cost dependent and is unaffordable for the average individual to pay out-of-pocket it is unaffordable for the aggregate individual as well.
There _should_ be some ambulance deserts.
There are some good points above, but I think this one is a distraction. Many of those states on that list have low ambulance densities because they have low population densities.
Have you ever driven through Wyoming or Montana? They have less than 10 people per square mile on average. There are a couple clusters of cities and then miles of empty land.
These statistics need to be based on cities, or at least have population density taken into account. It doesn't compute to set a threshold for ambulances per square mile when the population density differs so much from state to state.
--- Says far too many people, always.About 65% of the more than one million firefighters in the U.S. are volunteers, with nearly 19,000 fire departments being run completely by volunteers.
In rural Australia most of the fire, ambulance, and emergency response service are volunteer manned and (locally) run, with federal and state assistance for equipment and costs.
Costwise AU Ambulances are either free (if you're a St. John's member - cheap per annum OR if covered by private / work insurance) or (a decade out of date number) a flat fee of $500.
I volunteer to give blood. No one is paying me, and yet, someone's life is saved by that.
Some folks believe (in fact, this is the thesis statement of much of anarchist theory) that people would largely volunteer to care for one another if their basic needs were met.
Not everything has to be transactional, you can have a government setting up a scaffold that supports and encourages and organizes volunteers and run an effective service.
For my city of Ann Arbor, Michigan from https://www.a2gov.org/media/4glhvywf/2025-aafd-annual-report...
FY2026 budget: $20,810,234 Structure Fires: 58 Cooking Fires: 75 Vehicle Fires: 30
So should we somehow recover roughly $127,000 from the victims of each fire?
Of course not. I and my neighbors pay taxes to maintain the Fire Department and have it ready when needed. Many may argue that we pay too much, but those unfortunate enough to actually need its services would probably say they got a great deal.
They were super lucky that someone from the hospice just happened to be leaving at the same time they flipped the bed.
- If you’re comparing to developed nations (or some non developed ones with functioning agencies), the argument doesn’t hold true.
- If you’re comparing to the bottom of the barrel EMS (quality being ass like you said), you’re still not going bankrupt for an ambulance ride.
So there is a solution.
And even if you don't pay this it still isn't that expensive - US$12873 is more than a helicopter transport would cost here. US healthcare companies somehow get away with charging insured patients 10x more than civilised countries charge uninsured ones.
So compelled health insurance to use an ambulance? You could just as well make it optional and charge people without the insurance the full price.
Then, if you go to public doctors or hospital you still have to wait months for an exam or years for surgery. BUT, I've never heard of anyone going bankrupt from getting sick, or being scammed by their insurance not covering costs.
From what people make it sound, in the US you don't have socialized healthcare, getting doctors and exams is quick, but you also get scammed by insurance companies who will try their best to get out of paying, and I've definitely heard about people going bankrupt because they got sick.
- Blood test: wait time (after your 12 hour fast) is likely 15-30minutes in most of Europe (even eastern Europe. I should know, I do one every 3 month).
- pet-scan/x-ray: at most a few hours if your area is truly underserved, in my experience, less than an hour (but I needed it 4 times, so it might be small sample size).
Specialists will make you wait for sure if it doesn't sound life-threatening for deeper exams, and especially exams that requires surgery, but the only example I have on hand is my mother's boyfriend who got his in less than two weeks, and his cancer removal surgery was planned within 3 months after the tumor biopsy (you need to change your diet at least a month before surgery to prevent complications and improve healing, so the true delay caused by wait time is ~2 month). They also explicitly said that if his cancer was more aggressive they would have given him a month to prepare according to my mom.
But yes, in Europe especially, convenience surgery can take a year (my intern lips and teeth took 17 months) (and you pay a bit out of pocket), when in the US you can be done within days.
What I meant with "you have to wait months" is that if you go with the government-provided doctors and processes, they put you on a list and you have to wait for your turn. Getting an exam done can take months, and you can wait years for surgery, unless your condition is life-threatening.
If you go to a private clinic, of course you can get test results the same day and schedule any surgery within days.
Most people who can afford it go the private route. I had to do that too, which kind of pissed me off since I pay a hefty amount each month for insurance and I still have to go to private clinics. BUT, using the public infrastructure is just too inefficient. To get blood exams at a reduced price I had to schedule an appointment with my GP (days in advance), she'd send me to a specialist (about 1 week wait to get appointment), then a specialist would give me the paperwork required to get SOME of blood tests I needed covered by my insurance.
BUT, they will charge you for their services afterwards--both in the USA and in Poland.
Although I suspect that the bill from the American hospital will be A LOT more...
You have free healthcare for children (up to 18 years old), pregnant women and registered unemployed. Moreover, any working person can (for free) add their spouse and parents. Plus people can apply for free health insurance if they have very low income.
BUT, most people aren't children, pregnant, or registered unemployed/very low income, so from that point of view to me it's still an insurance-centric system.
I pay a hefty amount each month and I was sick in the past and the system was so inefficient that I had to go to private doctors and clinics just to figure out what was wrong with me. I see the public insurance payments as a tax and I have private insurance to cover the costs of private doctors/hospitals.
But maybe that's just me.
A 5 minutes ride cost 1500.- (more or less the same in USD)
Because I had used a good broker to pick my insurance plan, I was left with “only” 500.- to pay out of pocket for the ride.
In Quebec, as a resident, going 3 blocks in the ambulance cost us about 500 CAD if I remember correctly.
He was billed 600$.
The paramedics' judgment as to whether he should or shouldn't have isn't the debate here. They likely made the safe call.
If it’s an accident (ie sudden, unavoidable, unpredictable, more or less) it’s great because you have nothing to pay, you don’t even need to worry about the bill and there is no deductible and everything is covered no questions asked.
If it’s a disease, then it’s the regular insurance rules which can be quite arcane and you’re never sure what’s going to be covered and how much.
My transport was from adverse consequences of a surgery and so they deemed it not an accident, and that’s why I had to pay.
I guess I made the right call because I fainted in the ER later from blood loss.
Indeed, in my county that's the case along with a $60/year subscription program to indemnify yourself against further costs:
https://www.wake.gov/departments-government/emergency-medica...
the writer really went into depth about the problem and...surprise...the answer is almost embarrassingly simple.
Everyone in the country needs to read this.
This is weird, why didn’t he have a choice? I have literally walked out of a hospital with IVs still attached to my arms when I disagreed on course of treatment that included hospitalization for a case of white coat syndrome. They also wanted me to wait one hour to sign a waiver, which I unkindly refused.
Right, but air ambulances are subject to the No Surprises Act, and we somehow still have those.
Also, ERs are subject to the No Surprises Act, and they do some pretty damned expensive things. Plus, if you're seen by an out-of-network practitioner in an in-network hospital or ER, no you weren't: No Surprises Act forces them to accept QPA and not balance bill. Somehow all of those out-of-network anesthetists and radiologists are still in business.
Here's a PDF about the No Surprises Act:
https://www.cms.gov/files/document/a274577-1a-training-1-bal...
Tell the insurance company to wait to release the funds until you talk to the ambulance company or to release the funds directly to you.
Tell the ambulance company they can take the $9,967 or get zero.
That seems needlessly cruel to do to people.
It can be summarized in a short sentence: The cost comes from being always prepared with teams and equipment, and few privately insured riders subsidizes everyone else, getting very high surprise bills - this can and should be a shared community tax which would effectively allow free ambulance rides to almost everybody.
It's an excellently written post though. I suspect people read this author for the experience, more so than actual information. I just wonder if they should just do prose and go wild with their skill instead of coating a few predictable facts with so many layers of color.
Total expense: ~25€ for the two taxi rides.
Very happy to pay my taxes, and very happy that when I don't need it myself, they go into financing the healthcare services for others that may or may not be able to pay out of pocket.
At that point you're in the, what, top 2% of salaries? Especially for your age band.
She was transported to the hospital because she had a slight heart beat. Had she been declared dead at home, police and other staff would have helped process the death report and application for death certificate. I did not receive a bill or provide insurance information.
But yes, it’s because of “options” and not because of greed.
Some group of people tries to extract as much money as possible. You can call this capitalism. I think it’s a big scam.
Calling 911 does not give you an in-network and there no way to know in advance unless calling your insurance (in business hours, giving that you are not dying... which you probably are)
I wonder how countries with universal healthcare coverage deal with the lack of a (dis)incentive here. Maybe they just eat the cost?
If by law this service is required and you bill only the rides, you get this, high bills per ride.
It would be nice to see a chart of countries with cost of ambulance rides, cost for the patient and average response times.
From the article: "The most efficient way to fund ambulance services would simply be to pay for the option the way that options are normally paid for: with a premium, collected from everyone the service stands ready to rescue". In other words, taxation just like anything else we expect to be available to anybody.
And among the solutions, there's one that is briefly alluded to, but skipped around like a hot potato.
What if EMS were to refuse services for those who don't pay for the option on a monthly basis? And for the rest, if they choose to pay "on the spot" they can be OON like everyone is now? Why give out a free (or subsidized) option out, at all ? After all, I dont think it is illegal to turn away Medicare & Medicaid patients if you are not in-network with them.
We pay for other types of insurance. EMS insurance seems like a natural fit for a family.
The article is interesting, but it doesn't actually sufficiently dismiss this; it's the route cause of it all.
So NEMT can cover a lot of use cases where people are stable and just going to PCP or specialist visits. Or even behavioral health appointments. There are now dedicated NEMT providers, like Veyo out of San Diego.
In fact, when I broke my leg, there was talk of calling an ambulance. But I was only about 3 miles from the destination hospital, and there were many wise people nearby, so several of them suggested I just call a cab and take the cab to the E.D. instead, because that was far more efficient. So that's what we did, because really, I didn't need any life support, or blood transfusion, or rescuscitation on the way there.
Since the billing SNAFU last Thanksgiving I also learned about the difference between BLS and ALS. For some reason the ambulance provider billed for ALS even though none of that was necessary. Of course, ALS costs more and bills more and probably profits them more. I should have contested this stupid account trick, but whatever. They haven't even billed me for the "co-pay" yet, so we still need to wait and see how this shakes out.
Total cost was 70 bucks (10 bucks for the uber, 60 for the er copay).
The number of people here in the US who use uber as an ambulance is waaay higher than you would think.
LAFD has already called Ubers for non-emergency transport to hospitals.
https://www.cbsnews.com/losangeles/news/la-county-changes-am...
My wife and also have Rega. They can't legally call it insurance but if we get injured in, for example, the USA they will send us a private hospital jet to bring us home.
I am shuttled to the airport at 4 am and paid $30.
It did not cost 20k per ride. So ambulance providers charge that much because they can. There is no real competition.
better to live in uk where nhs takes care of all this compassionately for free.
He was lucky he was hit by a car.
A slab fronted SUV or pickup would have dragged him underneath and so it goes.
Specifically, with regard to the shape of the front of the vehicle:
> A large recent study in the USA found that, as compared with the low and sloping front end of a traditional passenger car, the odds of pedestrian fatality increased by 45% if the striking vehicle had a tall and sloped front end; increased by 44% if the striking vehicle had a tall and blunt front end; and increased by 26% if the striking vehicle had a medium-height and blunt front end.
That's corruption and nothing more. End it and imprison everyone who ever had a tangential relationship to this system, for life - to ensure no one will try to pull this sort of "regulatory capture" again.
As the article says, thousands of dollars for these 5 minute drives.
(Fuck "credit score") I sent a check for $20 for each of the two bills. And I then did the same the next month when the bills came again.
I repeated this $20-a-month routine for a few years before, in both cases, they ended up closing the accounts-billing after perhaps $500 or so was paid.
Kaiser transported me 4hrs in a ambulance to get surgery and I think I just paid the $200 ER fee
But then they would never cover an MRI for an issue with the same leg.
It's like we're almost done with this project guys, come on.
Welcome to America. It's a business. Gimme my money.
There was a long period of back-and-forth with calls and website visits, where they were insistently billing the wrong insurance, and so forth. But I'm grateful that I used the ambulance at that point in time.
The key advantage to an ambulance ride is bypassing the Triage Nurse. If you're going to an E.D. and you take a ride-share or a friend drives you, then you'll go to the registration desk and then meet the triage nurse. And the Triage window is pretty good at conserving hospital resources, and de-prioritizing you if your issue could be handled by Urgent Care or your PCP on a weekday.
But if the ambulance gets called to your home, it's a foregone conclusion that you really, really want to go to the E.D. and the ambulance crew will Keystone Kops their way to a successful hospital drop-off. They'll take some vitals and ensure that you're stable, because if you're not, they can save lives, and keep you alive during transport. But if you're conscious then they ask that $64,000 question: "do you want to go to the hospital?"
Once a few years ago, a nurse in a clinic had called 9-1-1 on my behalf and it was actually difficult to refuse a hospital transport. The EMS crew put me on the phone with a hospital attending physician and I had to emphatically refuse transport several times, after being advised of all the risks. (My only issue was elevated blood pressure. C'mon, guys.)
One of the troubles with ambulances is that they are really overkill for many calls. If some homeless dude goes unconscious on the curb, they get called. Some neighbor was going to call 9-1-1 because I laid down briefly near the pool. The ambulance and its crew is highly equipped to save lives and respond to the worst trauma cases: multi-GSW, car accidents at 70mph, etc. But I called them because I had a bad headache. And that's why they got to bill so much: they cost a lot! And I bet that a lot of uninsured deadbeats default on their ambulance bills, and the City gets to eat all those costs.
But the times I've transported myself to the hospital, I kinda got blocked by Triage, and it was for my own good. This last time over Thanksgiving, I had a lot of issues, and isn't it always the way that they hit at the beginning of a holiday weekend? So, it was good I went to the hospital.
But I was flabbergasted that my "co-pay" was 92% of the ambulance bill. I don't know why, but that plan has terminated anyway, so there's no arguing about it. At least, my actual hospital bills were well-covered by that plan.
This is going to depend on where you live/the particular hospital. A lot of "frequent fliers" figured out this loophole and started abusing it where I previously lived, so there was no way around the triage nurse.
> The standard answer is greed: rapacious ambulance operators, owned by villainous private equity firms, exploit patients at their most helpless. But I don’t think that’s actually what’s going on. Ambulance providers are chronically unprofitable businesses; margins are thin, crews are underpaid, and operators exit the industry every year.
(Yes, there is some other stuff, much, much, much later that maybe cuts into that …)
Unfortunately that’s not the case. It’s like day care. Day care is expensive because the government mandates it to be expensive. Otherwise you’d have grandmas down your street would gladly watch your kid but it’s generally not allowed for more than a couple kids.
Same thing with houses. I have half an acre. Could easily put 2 affordable tiny homes on it. Good income for me, cheap rent for someone else, but, unfortunately it’s legally blocked
How is that possible?