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Comment by gib444 | Hacker News Reader

Have you visited London recently? Particularly east. It's got the unfriendliness but also complete total breakdown of the social contract and social decency

Music and video calls without headphones on all transport all the time. Shoes and socks off on train seats. Zombies barging into you constantly. Nobody letting people off the train.

Throwing rubbish on the ground. Leaving it on trains and buses.

Vaping on the tube

Pushing through the barriers at stations is normalised

Everyone does whatever the hell they like everywhere all the time. Constant antisocial behaviour. It's hell. An absolute epicenter of selfishness

I dream of a rule based society like Germany or UK of years ago

Edit: am a Brit but wouldn't live in London for love nor money. Obviously a lot of those issues aren't just in London. This isn't "foreigner repeating right wing talking points" people love trying here

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I agree with the breakdown of the social contract in London, but not with the unfriendliness. I've lived in the UK for eight years and have travelled to many parts of England and Wales.

I've never felt as unwelcome in London as I do almost every time I leave it. Constant suspicious looks, questions about who I am and what the purpose of me being there is, the occasional downright xenophobia.

To give you a recent example, just a couple of weeks ago I was in a supermarket in Bangor stocking up on some water ahead of a hike in the Lake District. My train was delayed, and I am now about to miss the last bus for the next two hours (still needed the water). I explain this to the guy ahead of me in the queue, asking if I could maybe jump ahead of him. He looks at me, says "No", laughs, and then proceeds to scan his items as slowly as he can. Not everyone is like that, but this kind of thing happens all the time.

I definitely believe that you'll feel more of a sense of belonging outside London if you're a local, but as a non-local, it is not friendly at all. And the further away from Britain you are from (geographically and culturally), the worse you are treated. I noticed the difference in reaction when I told people I am Moldovan compared with my ex-partner telling them she is Dutch, and my non-white friends tell me stories that are even worse. London can be unfriendly and isolating, but I'd never live outside London and a few of the other cosmopolitan cities.

I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from. Yes it can be very insular and can take many years to even begin being treated like a local (it's not until you have a kid, so I'm told).

I'm treated with suspicion too. A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard agree it's strictly xenophobia/racism etc.

And your anecdote about that guy: exactly what I'm saying. Everyone out for themselves. Selfish. Unrelated to racism or xenophobia etc

But are you saying in London everyone falls over themselves to hold open doors, let you skip queues, always waits for people to get off the train first, nobody barges past anyone, every single shop worker says "hello good morning" "thank you" "have a great day"...? What acts of making you feel welcome exist in London that doesn't elsewhere in the country?

edit: And you started "I agree...but not with the unfriendliness" then ended with "London can be unfriendly" so I'm a bit confused :D

I don't have any identical comparisons of politeness in London and the rest of the UK, but subjectively I do feel people in London are more likely to hold doors, let me skip queues, etc. There's just more of a feeling that we're all trying to navigate life in the city together, rather than gatekeeping each other's presence in it.

It's even more noticeable with people who are paid to be polite: bar and waiting staff, the folks working at Tesco, pub security, the kebab man. I walk into a pub in the middle of nowhere in England, they treat me like I'm intruding or inconveniencing them. I do that in London, they just ask "What are you having love?".

There is definitely a lot of veiled and outright racism and xenophobia though. I've heard things like "your English is actually pretty good" (I was a BBC journalist, it's better than theirs), "at least you're not on benefits", "at least your people are not as bad as X". I've never been told these things in London.

> It's even more noticeable with people who are paid to be polite: bar and waiting staff, the folks working at Tesco, pub security, the kebab man. I walk into a pub in the middle of nowhere in England, they treat me like I'm intruding or inconveniencing them. I do that in London, they just ask "What are you having love?".

It's funny I find the complete opposite. I've been in London visiting for a week and it's been an absolute chore getting anyone to respond to "good morning" in a cafe or shop. Too many who barely speak English, don't tell me what the total is, do little more than grunt. Every order even for a simple black coffee involves an annoying back and front of "warmorice?" "Sorry?" "warmorice". Oh you mean "is that hot or iced coffee?"

A lot of it is racism and xenophobia (and I do acknowledge you may have been on the receiving end too). Many shops are staffed 100% by Asians now.

Yes HN, racism against white people / xenophobia towards British people exists.

Which part of London do you usually frequent out of interest? North or South West...?

I very much can imagine if you hang around with a lot of foreigners/non Londoners in London there's a shared experience there and a support network. You have a common background and 'struggle' of surviving London. What did you have shared with the man in Bangor or the pub staff elsewhere in England? Do you understand their perspective? Their struggles? Something to ponder perhaps

> What did you have shared with the man in Bangor or the pub staff elsewhere in England?

That's the point of being polite, treating people decently even if you have little in common.

Clearly we have different experiences and that's fine, we both seem to have found where we're comfortable.

> I have experience in what you describe, as I live far from London in a place I'm not from.

Me too, but people have been pretty friendly and welcoming, and i have not been here long.

> A lot of it is 'not from here [the village/town/county]' (and not sounding like you're from here) rather than 'not white' or 'not from the UK' so I can't hard agree it's strictly xenophobia/racism etc.

People in the north seem to make a bigger deal me being a southerner (and my accent) than non-white. Of course there is a bias because expressing the former is a lot more socially acceptable.

And Northerners have real, genuine grievances with the south (ie London/Westminster) and it's not for us to wag our fingers and say they ought to have open arms and love one and all. Understanding is key.

Agree with the bias. They're far less obvious about their issues with race. Eg there are people on my street who, if the local corner shop were the only shop in the country, would sooner starve than spend any money at a business run by a Pakistani family. I frequent it but not much because: most prices are not displayed, things are often out of date, offers are not honoured etc far more than any other shop in the area. (This is of course racism xenophobia etc blah blah to point this out.) When I nicely tried to raise the various issues the whole family turned against me - they take my money but that's it

We have all those things in Germany, including the converse stereotype that Brits like to queue and act proper and polite.

Guess we both need to redirect our fantasies of civility to Japan or something.

Of course it's people who don't even live in London who paint completely skewed pictures of the city. It's sad to see how much negative propaganda is being spread to induce fear, uncertainty and doubt. Why are you doing this?

Yes, almost everything you mentioned happens. You're probably going to come across some of it if you spend a bit more time here, and in some areas more than others. But you are exaggerating it all significantly - in reality these things are sporadic nuisances and it is SO far away from "everybody does what the hell they like" (implying lawlessness). Shameful really that you participate in this spread of bullshit about an amazing city.

Present your credentials. I'm from the south of England, my family lives in London, I spend plenty of time in London. I don't need your blessing to criticise the capital of the country I was born in.

Are you even British? If not, who the hell do /you/ think you are to accuse me of propaganda? I can tell you're not a native English speaker

> in reality these things are sporadic nuisances

THIS is the real propaganda

I straight up just live there, can you imagine? Every day!

Oh blimey, what a defensive post. Not everyone who dares to criticise your city is a paid outsider shill, chill down.

Not every defensive post is an accusation of shilling. I did no such thing

I got accused of propaganda and FUD. And I got told by a non Brit that I'm not allowed an opinion.

I responded entirely appropriately

> Have you visited London recently?

I have and did not experience any of that. Not all that different from when I last lived there in the last 90s.

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