Hacker News Reader

Comment by Recurecur | Hacker News Reader

We should all keep in mind that foreign interests, primarily China, are astroturfing to drive resentment in the USA against AI and datacenters. National governments are largely viewing AI as a strategic capability.

That’s not to say there aren’t downsides, but they vary quite a bit depending on location and grid capacity.

I actually expect there will be major progress made on the energy efficiency and performance of LLM models using novel hardware. So, the buildout may overshoot by quite a bit… If so I hope we can find a use for all those racks…

View on HN

We should also keep in mind that the problem isn't datacenters, but how they are built.

Datacenters do not have to be noisy. Datacenters do not have to cheap out on cooling solutions. Datacenters do not need to be powered by mobile gas turbines left on trailers to pretend they're not permanently installed to avoid having to get permits.

Those corners being cut is not what make AI datacenters possible or competitive. That race is purely chip supply.

For reference, I work in an industrial neighborhood where there are quite a few new datacenters from big providers. The buildings are ugly for sure, but unless you're staring at it you'd have no idea it was there. I could try to pay more attention to see if I can hear it if I focus on it, but I suspect the sound of nearby rustling leaves will be too deafening to make out anything.

> Datacenters do not need to be powered by mobile gas turbines left on trailers

The others I agree with, but Im not sure this is true. The US government has proven itself completely incapable of expanding electricity production and grid infrastructure. How exactly are you supposed to power your datacenter when you cant access any electricity?

Three ways:

1. Build your datacenter near supply. If there were consequences to ignoring the rules or being a bad neighbor with municipality, state or federal government baring their teeth, more optimal locations with regards to supply and noise would also end up being the cheapest and safest location for them.

2. Build supply near your datacenter. Solar and wind are both very cheap right now, but requires buying more land, same for a proper gas power plant in its own building with appropriate noise and pollution treatment.

3. Make investment into infrastructure a prerequisite for the project instead of just complaining about it and making into an excuse for cutting corners.

Even if you need to have local supply, "mobile gas turbines left on trailers to pretend they're not permanently installed to avoid having to get permits" is never a necessity.

The US govt does not build out infrastructure. They at best subsidize it over long periods of time.

To answer your question, you build your datacenters where there is capacity or you plan with the utility in the area you want to build. This process takes years.

They are not doing that. They are building them as fast and as cheaply as possible.

As a result they are cutting corners and are leading to all of the complaints.

They are as a result stealing from the future to make a profit today.

The grid does not have gigawatts of extra base load capacity available as that has always been looked upon as wasteful.

The noise is often from backup power solutions like diesel generators that need to be turned on regularly. Maybe that’s what the turbines are? I can’t imagine a data center getting provisioned with a turbine as its primary power. But yes a data center can be silent most of the month.

Very open to being corrected on any of this, it’s just my own understanding but I’m not in the industry.

To my understanding (which can be wrong) these gas turbines are not backup generators, but used as primary or supplementary power sources during normal operation where the grid cannot supply (or when grid cost is unfavorable). In one clip (which is a bit sensationalist so I'll refrain from posting it as it may derail) shows a park of some ~24 large gas turbines - each of which sized like a small building - with about half in operation at that time.

Indeed, there is some noise from backup generators when tested (or in use), but with a bit of preparation, good palcement and sequential testing you can make that not too disturbing.

We should all keep in mind that foreign interests, primarily China, are astroturfing to drive resentment in the USA against AI and datacenters.

AI companies are doing a fine job of driving the resentment all by themselves, they don't need China's help. Whether you're right or wrong is irrelevant, these companies are doing nothing, absolutely nothing, to help the public's view of them. They seem to think that they don't need public support.

Oh, they're trying alright. Google has been spamming Twitch with ads of teens and 20-somethings talking about how Gemini helps them study or "research" their paper, and the casting call clearly was for urban progressive LGBTQ types

> We should all keep in mind that foreign interests, primarily China, are astroturfing to drive resentment in the USA against AI and datacenters

There hasn't been any credible reporting on this so far. It's far more likely people are just mad that they have to pay for the AI boom both literally via increased electricity rates and via increased noise, water shortage and construction related pollution caused by the data centers.

If it were true that data centers are building "American dynamism" and China wants to suppress that, surely they would be building data centers the way they build trains.

They're not. And that should make you go hmmm.

The Chinese are using AI in a fundamentally different way from the west.

I see the inscrutable Chinese have left you without any specifics.

Do you expect a rational answer to a "why" question?

There really isn’t a need for foreign interests to artificially boost the negative sentiments towards data centers, hyperscalers are doing a pretty terrible job at getting the public onboard

I can’t believe the Chinese did this https://www.404media.co/henrico-virginia-datacenter-energy-c...

Why aren't we (in the US) building all these data centers in the Southwest where huge amounts of vacant land and the best wind and solar power options are?

With fiber connectivity it doesn't matter if they are in remote locations.

Don't they also need plentiful water?

Only open loop systems, the dumbest loop systems.

Probably the lack of water. I don't know why they need to continually pump it instead of doing a closed loop and cooling it through a few miles of pipe underground which is practically free, after you install the plumbing. Sure evaporative cooling is good, but certainly there are workable alternatives.

That or latent heat cooling, the other end of the phase-state spectrum: Instead of evaporating water during the day, make ice all night when ambient air temps drop and then use it to cool a closed-loop system during the day.

China is not the enemy.

Two things can be true.

> We should all keep in mind that foreign interests, primarily China, are astroturfing to drive resentment in the USA against AI and datacenters.

I'm pretty sure the economics of it for the average citizen takes care of the resentment all by itself. No need for elaborate conspiracy theories.

We should all keep in mind that foreign interests may be astroturfing right here on HN.

They are winning recall votes and getting a lot of pushback at in person city council meetings. People keep saying it's astroturfed (and I do expect a lot of communication online to not be in good faith) but you can also see the real grassroots pushback. I mean the article is talking about recalling mayors, you don't get that without pretty extreme local opposition.

Bullshit. Nobody needs to "drive" resentment. "AI" is touching everyone's lives and in not in a good way. And nobody gives a shit what privileged, wealthy, financially-benefiting political leaders want.

AI was used by the Israelis to decide what homes in Palestine to bomb.

AI was used by the Trump admin to decide what buildings to target, including a school of ~200 kids.

xAI was deploying numerous gas-turbine trailers at their datacenters in urban areas where they couldn't get enough power. Turbines that pump out huge amounts of NOx and noise...not to mention these DCs are generating so much heat they're raising the temperature of the areas they're in.

In every social group I'm in both IRL and online people hate AI shit.

They hate the monumental waste of energy, water, and land.

They hate the noise and pollution created by gas turbine generators being deployed at DCs because the DC can't get enough power

They hate that DCs consume water treated for DRINKING and pay a fraction of what individual ratepayers pay

They hate that politicians are handing out freebies to these DCs, whether it is tax breaks of infrastructure or discounted utilities or all of the above.

They hate AI phone system 'agents' that routinely get things wrong.

They hate AI "news stories."

They hate AI "agents" they have to deal with to get support for things which somehow manage to be even worse than someone who barely speaks English and has a decision tree in front of them, despite the company clearly being able to train it on much more data and refine it.

They hate it when media outlets use AI for "artwork" and graphics that look idiotic / have basic mistakes and clearly took work away from a photographer, editor, or graphic designer. Or all three.

They hate it when businesses, acquaintances, coworkers, friends reply to them with obviously-written-by-AI responses.

There are endless stories here about how AI is swamping open source projects with garbage bug reports and push requests.

In gaming circles they hate how prices on SSDs and RAM have tripled or more.

The programmers I know see endless slop and people in their field being fired because management thinks AI can do their jobs.

The list goes on. The only people who "like" AI are AI DudeBros and investors.

Since you have such strong (and numerous) opinions…

AI is a tool, and one that governments of all stripes will use for many things, including military applications. It’s overly simplistic to say “AI was used to bomb things”. There’s always a human making the decision to hit a target or not in Israel and America. Of course, that won’t necessarily be the case in totalitarian countries…

As to hitting the school, bear in mind that it was literally part of a military base.

On energy use, there’s actually no reason to limit it unless worldwide usage grows by orders of magnitude. What does need to happen is a transition to clean sources. Natural gas isn’t ideal, but still much better than coal. However, there’s a lot of interest in modular nuclear reactors for this application, which would be fine.

As to how well current AI works, the canard “Past performance does not guarantee future results” applies. We’re just at the infancy of the tech.

Your anecdotal screeds of hate towards AI should be balanced with the numerous stories here on HN and elsewhere of people using it very successfully and happily. As to the general populace, the daily usage figures for ChatGPT and other chatbots belie the hate you’re claiming to be universal.

Finally, yes the price increases on RAM and SSDs aren’t great. This too shall pass as more capacity comes online due to the wonders of capitalism. Don’t panic! ;-)

Pretty funny to be downvoted so heavily. Sadly, it appears the average HN reader is pretty far left and woke. China is NOT your friend.

I didn’t even express a preference for or against AI…

Reply on news.ycombinator.com