I find the internet full of panic and fear and negativity these days and it overstates how pervasive a thing is.
Example: I travel to Disney World sometimes. There's a recent hubub about transportation and the blame is all on "OMG THE INFLUENCERS ARE EVERYWHERE".
In those situations it's interesting how many people will spread those stories about influencers saturating the park / causing problems and yet ... most every user who replies "I've never seen one at the park".
Everyone's experience is valid IMO. Everyone gets to express their lived experience.
There used to be a lot of "abusive start up demands massive hours" talk on HN. I actually think people expressing how it isn't that way everywhere / doesn't have to be that way is VERY helpful. Folks in those situations now know that maybe they have options.
The idea that if we're discussing a problem that only people with that problem may share their experience is absurd at face value.
"I'm insured!"
"Open-source software projects are being spammed with LLM generated PRs. Contributions are becoming more restricted".
"I have a repo that isn't being spammed!"
Sometimes sharing a somewhat related experience is completely irrelevant to the topic at hand, and also completely uninteresting. It does not matter that somehow their "experience is valid".
If people's opinions or thoughts don't fit a narrative you want, a forum likely isn't the place to find it.
Everyone gets to share, there's no rules here about not sharing / having a different experience than others.
I have no idea why you're making a comparison to a TV show; nothing that was described was anything akin to that. I just made examples out of insufferable and clueless forum comments, that very clearly detract from discussion more than they contribute to it.
I don't think you should assume that describing meaningless and unrelated anecdotes as "uninteresting" is equivalent to users calling for a forum ban, which is seemingly what you're doing when you point to forum rules when encountering a critique.
I disagree that this is a fair interpretation of the original objection. But assuming it is a possible interpretation, "that doesn't happen to me" isn't sharing an experience, it's sharing the lack of an experience.
Sure, yes, everyone does get to share, on a public forum, expecting otherwise is dumb. On that, 100% with you!
And yet, I feel like there's an important difference between sharing how your favorite color is blue, after someone said they like red the best, and sharing how you're not being mistreated, when someone is asking for help to stop someone from mistreating them.
You see how one is everyone sharing together, and the other appears to minimize the mistreatment of someone else?
Think someone says i'm thirsty all the time because there's little clean water available, what's available is expensive but it could be better if we did so-and-so.
and someone replies I'm not thirsty.
Which one is right?
One person offers insight and the other reacts. Such a reaction is inherently on a different plane than a original statement, because you chose to make it about yourself, in the presence of another persons slice of their reality.
To give a crass example:
A: I had a shitty day, they took my dog and killed it
B: Well, *my* dog is still alive
To which I would say: Congrats on telegraphing to the world you are a self-centered asshole that wouldn't recognize the concept of empathy if it jumped into their face.I know, some people have the reflexive urge to make every situation about themselves, but I think you should instead be aware that (1) your own experience is not necessarily representative of the broader reality and (2) even if it is may distract from the topic being discussed.
Don't get me wrong, everybodies lived experience is in fact valid. And yet that doesn't mean it is appropriate to share it at all times. If your friend tells you their newborn died during childbirth telling them: "Well mine didn't" would be actively abusive behavior. If someone tells you an intimate story about how being poor affected them as a child, there are certain ways to share your experience of how your parents always bought you everything you wanted that productively add to the topic and others that distract from it.
Always remember that everybody just sharing their experience is a different thing from you reacting on some others experience. What may be a fun anecdote for you, may be a life-defining experience for others.
Aside from these examples anecdotal evidence can be destructive if it ignores that the plural of anecdotes is not data.
Saying this doesn't happen to you in threads like this just signifies that you don't care, you basically downplay other people's bad experiences because well, it doesn't concern you.
You may not be affected now but you never know when it will happen to you or to someone close to you, and you would be glad that such law exists protecting you.
If it were national, sure. As is, companies will see Michigan as a bad place to hire people, which was probably not the goal.
Tech sales can be just as bad. This is more understandable, but if customers didn't work outside of work hours, sales folks wouldn't need to either (since speed outside of work would no longer be an advantage).
>Maybe I just have abnormal leverage
while the other opens with
>I'm curious
The top two top-level comments are responding to this trend, so I assume it is or was present, but I'm not seeing it. I do wish people would reply to the comments they find objectionable instead of doing these meta comments subtweeting them because I find I run into this issue often lately here (pot-kettle objection noted and accurate).
It's telling if someone can't actually find a comment to reply to in order to address whatever meta issue they're concerned about.
The first is that, by the standards of the world at large, this is a relatively homogeneous community. It is still a wildly diverse community, that's one of the things that makes it valuable, but in the same way that psychology has a WEIRD[1] problem, Hacker News is homogeneous - we're more likely, as a community, to not include a viewpoint sampled at random from humanity than to include it.
That points towards the second, which is that there's a tendency within this group where, when a news article comes up or a law is proposed or an academic study is posted in which some factor of human life is discussed ("X% of people experience food scarcity", "Y state bill would bar employers from Z", "B in C people are genetic carriers for Q"), to discuss it from our own viewpoint - "My cousin who experienced food scarcity was a klepto," "my employer tried to call me off hours and I didn't answer," "my cousin died from Q." This is both intensely human and often fairly useless here, because of point one above. I am a straight white male who grew up in a house whose affluence varied but never dropped below sustenance who's worked in tech my entire life. I have parts of myself that are genuinely different, where I feel I can genuinely provide new information to the group (I've had heart surgery, for instance), but by and large, if I share my experience with this group, it's to commiserate with colleagues. I am part of this community; things which seem strange to me are more likely than not to be outside this broader community's lived experiences as well.
So my critique here, broadly, is that we as a professed group of hackers - as a group of people who've self-labeled as curious - have a bad tendency to read things that indicate an experience of life that we haven't or don't have (in this case, that someone could be unable to deny their employer after-hours comms) and focus on our own experiences, rather than recognizing that we're being provided an opportunity to expand our understanding of the possible states of the world or the possibilities of being for people in this world.
It's understandable and deeply human that we would do so - we're social creatures, and community building is in part an act of expressing and validating commonality - but for a group whose self-identity is curiosity, to respond to evidence of someone else's lived experience by reiterating our own lived experience when that experience is likely to be within that of the broader group present is... well, it just takes up space.
(By the way, this is the point in the post where I'm going to nod towards my neurodivergent brethren: when I say below "we," if the point I'm making doesn't apply to you, understand that if you were in a room with you, me, and 10 wolves, and I said "there's too many wolves in this room," and you responded "well I'm not a wolf," I would agree with you and that wouldn't change my point.)
We are, broadly, a privileged group. Broadly, the people on this forum have remarkable market power. Broadly, the people on this forum are wealthy. Broadly, the people on this forum are educated. If, when you comment on a thread, you are expressing a part of your lived experience that broadly coincides with the lived experience of the median person on this forum, _you are not adding to the discussion._ You're not expanding the discussion. You're not helping people learn. You're not, yourself, learning. If you read something on this forum and think, "weird, that's not how I experience the world," think to yourself "Am I adding to this discussion by saying that?"
I'm not sure about that, but to your higher point, HN hasn't taken pride in it's nominative determinism nature, nor does it appear to be a desired trait from the majority. But the continued enshittifcation aside, "it doesn't happen to me" is still a useful observation. That shouldn't be read as a refutation, because I already agree with your point. The intent of most of the comments your objecting to, likely does come from a narcissistic compulsion, to turn the topic to something about them.
But I could easily say "it doesn't happen to me" while (poorly) trying to convey a message of encouragement towards self-confidence, and self-worth. Rather, it doesn't happen to me, because I haven't been gaslit into the shared and common delusion that: if you get fired, it'll because of something you did, and not because your manager felt like it. "Employee didn't answer the call/message at 10pm" is the reason they'll invent to fire you after they've decided to fire you. It won't be the root cause. You can just turn your messages off, and nothing bad will happen because you didn't respond.
Are there dysfunctional companies where something like that will get you fired? Absolutely! I would have hoped that existing wrongful termination laws would have already prevented this kinda thing, (if they don't that's a much larger problem) but I have no objections to making this an explicit law to compel the behavior of the sub-human group that would rather mistreat their coworkers. But given that within places that behave like this, this law would only fix a small subset of the pervasive human rights abuses inflicted during non-working hours. I feel like something more expansive should be done to protect those people from clearly abusive behavior.
I still expect that the vast majority of the people that would benefit from this, could simply just turn their phone off, and no one would notice... because while it's a problem, that does happen to some people, one that needs to be fixed! It doesn't happen to me, and probably doesn't really happen to you (most people) either.
...than it does for you, which means there's an opportunity for someone to expend resources verifying and characterizing the claimed difference.
IMO, the only reasonable argument one could take, is that roughly believes hackers should be curious, and that if you want to treat humans with the respect they deserve as individuals, you should default to trying to believe what they say, listening when they try to communicate, and avoid ignoring what they're trying to communicate just so you can interject something unrelated about yourself.
I not only agree, but I'm glad someone took a moment to encourage treating others with respect.
Explaining how to update your understanding feels like something that shouldn't need explaining, so I have no idea how well it'll turn out, but I'll give it a shot.
In the case of the original objection, the problem was instead of being willing to believe the other person commenting is being honest, and that they do actually have a manager so detached from reality, and what reasonable and fair behavior would be, that their manager expects them to respond to messages 24/7. Remember, we're assuming this person actually exists in real life. Either you believe this person exists, or you don't, or you actively refuse to believe that this person exists. For the above case, the argument was never you should pretend your boss behaves like that. The recommendation is that you assume the person you're talking to is not lying to you, until you have specific concrete evidence otherwise. If you don't have concrete evidence they are lying, you should believe them, and you should believe that [this person] thinks their boss expects them to be available 24/7.
This is an update to your world view. If you thought no boss could ever behave like this, your world view should now include there are plenty of people who believe their boss behaves like that. You don't have to discard your entire world view to say
shit, some people really do have a bully on a power trip instead of a manager who wants to help them be successful.
hell, you don't even have to believe that, you could just as easily update your worldview to include, wow, there are a lot more people who are afraid to say no than I thought there were. The point isn't to replace whatever idea you had, the point was always, listen to people and try to understand their point of reference, and try to use the things they have learned about life to help yourself, and if you're not incompetent, hopefully help them too. But seriously if you're still so stuck on how you just can not listen to them without completely discarding what you know today, pretend they aren't lying, but they're just engaging in some role play. In this magical make believe world, there is this evil bossman, how can we defeat him?!
If this idea, of picking up new information in the shape of an opinions from another person with eyes and the ability to form coherent sentences and complaints, is really so foreign to you... perhaps you do need to completely discard your current model for understanding, and replace it with a diff model for understanding that can be modified and updated in place without needing to start over.
You don't need to accept their reality as true, to believe them and want to help. Saying "that's not how my boss acts" is an attempt at a refutation, and a denial of their expression. You can doubt that their boss is really that bad, but still be willing to see if you are able to help, instead of rejecting them with, sorry I already believe something different and to even consider if you're describing something that actually happens, I'm going to assert my experience is exactly what it's like for everyone.
If someone shares a story of a terrible interview experience on HN (which happens often) and I claim that bad interviews don’t exist because I’ve never experienced one, do we now expect people to litigate the fact that bad interviews do in fact exist? Or do we just downvote my terrible take and move on?
Becoming harder and harder by the day as the internet and society change, with the bots and the growing inequality and all.