Europe to exclude military-age Ukrainian men from temporary protection scheme
euronews.com
euronews.com
I could speak, but...
But for real, that was kinda rude. How did you get that impression?
Considering where we are, I can take a guess what you meant, but also think of a least three ways that someone can take issue with that line, but that boil mostly down to, that it was only pretense and not the reason at all.
So, no, it's not really obvious.
I just like it when governments try to be consistent with their policies. Equal rights? That's great, but then why men all of a sudden have more duties? If they do, they should have more privileges then. That's consistent and honest.
It is (mostly) consistent. Some of the northern countries actually started conscripting women in the last decade, but otherwise it is voluntary for women...
Also war is relatively rare these days and men don't have to get the babies. So, that's that, with the duties and privileges.
Is being forced to die for motherland vs have an option not to = "mostly" consistent? You're delusional.
That would be a problem. But given the right circumstances, it happens anyway. (the babies, not the forcing)
> You're delusional.
That or reading too much history. You are right. It used to be like that, though.
It's also stupid to argue these topics when you have no good clue about what it actually means to be at war. Shouldn't do that again.
As a father, brother, son and coward who didn't serve, I'd rather be with my loved ones than in the trenches. But having them, or any women, drafted in my place is also out of the question.
Also, are you disregarding the reality that we life in nations (that can have the misfortune of having evil demon lords as neighbors) and that man and woman are not totally interchangeable?
What is your suggestion then? Speaking as a leader of a country at war or an ally of that country.
Or, if you decide that men have duties that women don't, let's get back to the patriarchy and give the men the privileges they fight for (or have to fight for in case of a war).
Or that happened to your ally. Also good job.
Most people decided millennia ago that man and woman have different duties in war times. Both important. Am I wrong?
Why is it, that you have to bring up all these unrelated topics like patriarchy, privileges and nazism? Sounds familiar. Do you have a checklist? Can I see it?
Also:
>> ...fight for God knows what...
People tend to have an attachment to the place where they live or have been born or with the people they live with. I do, at least somewhat. What about you?
EDIT: In my country (one of the offending), `women cannot under any circumstance be required (conscripted) to "serve with a weapon"`
That is a privilege, no?
So, totally in line with policy and even in our "constitution".
As i said, women have different responsibilities in wartime. not less. different.
You cannot achieve perfect equality if two things aren't perfectly equal. We try, we really do. But there will always be something left. And that is fine.
Or do you suggest to conscript women and send them to the front instead? just to satisfy equality?
My population suffers either way and losing a war to a dictatorship while being a dictatorship doesnt change much.
Ukraine doesn't have allies. If it did, they'd be at war with Russia too.
> Most people decided millennia ago that man and woman have different duties in war times
Guess what, their decisions weren't limited by war times. Men and women had different duties in family, in communities, in positions of power, etc. And they had different rights then too, btw.
> Why is it, that you have to bring up all these unrelated topics like patriarchy, privileges and nazism?
Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about.
This division of duties IS called a patriarchal system, where men lead and women follow. YOU are trying to defend it, not me.
> People tend to have an attachment to the place where they live or have been born or with the people they live with.
Is that the reason they fled the country and want to move elsewhere and are now forced to go back? Interesting logic.
> That is a privilege, no?
Yes, that is a privilege men don't have. That's inequality by definition.
> As i said, women have different responsibilities in wartime.
I don't see women being forced out back to Ukraine to their responsibilities, though. Do you?
> Or do you suggest to conscript women and send them to the front instead?
I suggest consistency. If they claim to aim for equality, that's the logical step. And not "instead" but along with men. If they think women should have different responsibilities, then please be consistent and force them to commit to their responsibilities (what are they though?).
After having a talk with a friend, I agree on this one. Didn't think far enough. Forced military service makes for poor soldiers, especially when you drag them back from an "allied" country. Your governments standing suffers for next to no gain.
> Guess what, their decisions weren't limited by war times. ...
Agreed, but the topic is war times.
> Dude, you have no idea what you're talking about.
Can't rule that out, or just very different perspective. That's the reason for the many dumb questions. Please bear with me.
> This division of duties IS called...
something... Not defending it, just can't see where the "patriarchal system" applies here. If that were relevant in any way, why would we men go to shot each other in the face? Need help here.
> Is that the reason they fled the country
A part of them might have fled to avoid the conscription, agreed. Otherwise it was the massive invasion... My grandparents fled the red army out of Bohemia as well. Didn't change the attachment or fondness towards their old home. Hard to return when someone else live in your home.
> That's inequality by definition.
Agreed.
> I don't see women being forced out back to Ukraine to their responsibilities, though. Do you?
Explained that point pretty well, i think. And we'll remind them about that if they don't lose the war.
> I suggest consistency
It is consistent. What the government wants/says and what is lived is not the same. Also, I never said, I agree with the EU decision. It's stupid and they, again, do their own thing. The decision will probably cost the respective governments a lot of standing with our and the Ukrainian population.
I'm arguing gender equality is the minor issue on that whole thing. It's as you said, we (EU) are no allies. We do the least amount of effort so that ukraine doesn't lose the war, but aren't counted as part of the war. It's shameful.
I guess, we are afraid, if it escalates outside of ukraine, we can't even muster a defense and the risk of nuclear retaliation.
Want to thank you for your time and apologize. I learned a bit the last days. but have the tendency of getting an allergy when people appear to laser-focus on a topic and need to have it applied everywhere and disregard everything else. Have to work on my biases and patience, I guess...
Putin doesn't need to invade further, we're turning into his country by our own will