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Comment by msy | Hacker News Reader

Revision A Apple projects have had issues for as long as Apple has been making products.

Second gen Macbook Air's had Logic board issues, 2007 era RevA Macbook Pros had video card issues, dodgy graphics cards on the early Mac Pros, the iPhone4 antenna, the list is endless. Often it's taken years for the issues to be resolved and Apple to pay for repairs, if at all.

It's simple, if you want the shiniest tech, buy whatever Apple is selling today. If you want reliable hardware, wait for the first revision when the kinks have been worked out. That way we don't all get spammed with the histronics of endless bloggers who think this is a new phenomenon.

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When batteries for my 2006 MBP's model had problems, Apple issued a recall. I got a new one in a UPS box that I could use to send the old one back. This cost apple parts and shipping, not even a technician's time. Service like this is much harder to provide if the computers you build are not repairable at all. They created a situation where fixing one problem means exchanging the whole unit. That is their own fault. Are you seriously blaming the customer for wanting a fault fixed in his 3kUSD computer with paid warranty extension?

From my understanding of the comment, he wasn't blaming the customer. Rather, he's trying to say that people shouldn't rush to buy the revision A (or version 1 or 1st generation or whatever) of an Apple product. Instead, wait for the initial (and what are now expected) flaws to be fixed and then buy them. However, I think this is a problem that is likely to happen with any company, not just Apple.

In most markets, the law does not allow beta products and caveat emptor. Warranties against product flaws are mandatory. Personally, I would consider ghosting as shown by the OP a defect covered by warranty. In addition to that, a premium brand should treat early adopters well, especially those who bought the flagship product. This is the point OP seems to be making. However, due to their own design decisions, they have made this very expensive, which incentivizes them to provide shitty service, which is damaging their brand image.

"...Warranties against product flaws are mandatory..."

If that were true...

the software industry would be in REAL trouble.

Do you agree to an EULA when buying an MBP or another laptop, implicitly or otherwise? Serious question.

AFAIK, as a consumer, you cannot sign away these rights for physical products. For software, which you license, i.e. acquire usage rights, the situation seems to be different.

Most open source software licenses contain all-caps legalese disclaiming all forms of warranty. See [1] and [2] for example.

[1]: http://opensource.org/licenses/MIT

[2]: http://opensource.org/licenses/BSD-3-Clause

For an example, see this summary of the baseline for warranties in the EU http://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/shopping/shopping-abroa... I suppose the reason why the software industry gets around this is that you can't buy software but only license it.

I had the same issue with a 11" MBP back in the day and had the same great fix, although I was told to throw the old battery away.

I also had an issue with a 1Gen time capsule, which when it broke got replaced in store no questions asked.

I guess I have been lucky?

I hope you disposed of it in an environmental sound manner roblem.

I have no idea where it is, so guess not Mat ;)

The suggestion of avoiding gen 1 products isn't to blame the customer, but warn them of trouble before purchasing. Whether you get a timely recall/replacement or the problem is ignored still means you have to go of your way to discover, troubleshoot, and resolve the problem. It's nice in many cases they've gone out of their way to fix the issue, but I would rather not have it in the first place. So I generally avoid gen 1 Apple products.

I’m ok with first gen products having issues. I’m not ok with the way with which Apple treats their customers when those issues appear.

Issues can appear, especially with first gen products. I can totally understand that. I cannot for the life of me understand how Apple decided to handle this issue. I’m just not used to Apple treating their customers with contempt and treating them like stupid idiots.

I don't think calling Apple out on selling a faulty $3000 laptop and refusing to repair it counts as histrionics or spam.

No, but the tone and ensuing vitriol does. I'd hasten to add that this happen with other manufacturers with startling regularity too. I've been given the run around by HP on a similar spec'ed and similarly priced month old EliteBook, that is faulty to point of unsuitability for any practical use. This is replacing a Thinkpad whose screen came away from it hinges after less than 6 months use. Had I written a scathing blog post about either and linked to it here, I doubt that it would have even raised a comment, let alone a single up-vote. And rightly so because just like the OP, it's ANECDOTAL.

So the person that down-voted without explaining why either thinks that there has been a lack of vitriol or thinks that anecdotal evidence in the negative outweighs the plethora of anecdotal evidence to the contrary. We'll never know because this has developed into the usual inevitable flame fest.

I think you missed the whole point of the article.

The point isn't with the fact that there is an issue, its that Apple is seemingly trying to sweep it under the rug.

I'm pointing out Apple have a long history of doing this with Revision A products, which the Retina MBA is. It's not new, it's not unusual and it shouldn't be unexpected.

So because they do it all the time ignoring a legitimate issue is now acceptable?

msy is not making a value judgment on Apple, he's saying this is nothing new. In contrast to the article:

>I remember an Apple that bent over backwards to understand its customers’ point of view and stretched itself to meet the high expectations it sets.

I think the thing is that the two statements aren't really at odds.

Apple has always bent over to resolve issues for customers if they acknowledge the issue. For example, I had a pre-unibody MBP that the power button pushed through the top case. Apple very promptly took it back, replaced the top case and a few other cosmetic dings I hadn't complained about, and got it back to me.

On the other hand, Apple also has a long history of refusing to acknowledge some issues and giving the customer the run around on them, which is the type of complaint in this article.

I don't think he said that. Probably he just said people should have woken up long back.

It's more along the lines that really, you shouldn't be surprised that something which has been happening for 15 years or so with no end in sight still happens.

> The point isn't with the fact that there is an issue, its that Apple is seemingly trying to sweep it under the rug.

I don't think that's quite it. Apple realises there's a problem, and that's why they have the standardised test. I think the real problem here is that Apple's test is insufficient, but they don't know that, so they don't believe their customers when they say they're having still having issues. And that's not reassuring for someone who's just spent a lot of money on a new machine.

Personally, I've never had this issue with my rMBP, but I'm sympathetic with those that do.

Possibly, you are right that its in the fact that the test is insufficient. The question is if this is known by Apple or not.

I personally can't see how they could not know, this is not the kind of issue where ppl are going to be blowing there whistle for no reason. So Apple knows there is an issue, if there own tests do not match the numbers of complains(to some degree) even more red flags should be going up.

I am no conspiracy theorist, but there seems to be some valid points in the article.

It's hard for me to believe that they don't know the test is insufficient when the protocol involves waiting 1 minute for the problem to go away.

> I think you missed the whole point of the article.

> The point isn't with the fact that there is an issue, its that Apple is seemingly trying to sweep it under the rug.

I think you missed the whole point of OP post: That is exactly what Apple has a reputation for doing. For example: The Antenna Fiasco -

http://www.engadget.com/2010/06/24/apple-responds-over-iphon...

Yeah, 100%. Just blind commenting. Dude read it again.

Just pointing out that for anyone I've ever met, the antennagate was just media sites drumming up page-views.

I never had an issue, and despite everyone at my office having iPhone4s and 4Ss, the only time any of us were ever able to affect antenna-strength was having a wet hand, and then purposefully applying a lot of pressure to attempt to attenuate the case.

It could be the signal-strength display "fix" was hiding issues (actually, this is almost certainly the case), but in practice, it was never an issue, and the 4 had consistently better signal than any other device I've owned, including a GalaxyS2 since the iPhones could get a good enough signal in elevators that previous phones (both iPhone and Android) didn't.

And despite being the same basic design AFAICT, never seen a mention of the issue with the iPhone5.

I could consistently re-create antennagate on my iphone 4 every single time I "held it wrong." I was forced to completely change the way I help my phone, permanently.

You could have returned the phone, you were not forced to do anything.

Typical exchange:

Person A: Apple is amazing. Antenna-gate was mass media nonsense.

Person B: I, personally, had major problems with the antenna.

Person C: Why don't you just get rid of your phone then? No one told you to buy one.

Or, I can demand the quality and service I expect from a premium product. What's wrong with that?

If this makes you think it's not a premium product, or the best out there, go get a different product. What's so wrong with that? I want a pony, but dammit Apple doesn't offer ponies. Saying "I WANT A PONY FROM APPLE NOW" isn't going to make it so. Quit bitching and take your business elsewhere. If you happen to think the iPhone is still the best even with this problem, then get a case or hold the phone differently.

I agree with Politician A on every point except one. So since we have that one disagreement, I'm going to vote for politician B instead, with whom I disagree on every issue but this one.

One issue doesn't mean you have to hate the phone as a whole, or stop using it. The more acceptable response is to ask that the issue be fixed. Just because an iPhone has signal issues that are inconvenient doesn't mean it's not the phone that this person likes better than the others.

It's a problem with the phone. Apple offered a free solution, put a case on it. If you don't like that solution, what do you want them to do about it? Re-engineer the phone just for you and give you a replacement? It's not like this was a 1-off problem, like Joe's phone was defective so we replace Joe's phone. EVERY phone was made the same with this problem. You can't just "fix it" for Joe. It isn't a matter of customer service where they can just fix the issue.

You're missing the point. Just because there's one problem with the iPhone, no matter how many people it affects, doesn't mean it's automatically a bad choice if every other feature is what you're looking for in a smartphone. If the antenna makes a phone 90/100 but every other phone is still at best 80/100, does switching platforms make sense? It's still a valid issue to complain about, but not enough to make the decision to abandon the platform for some people.

The point is, the iPhone is what these customers were looking for. They still like it enough to keep it, and they like it enough to complain when there are quality issues rather than switch.

I think you're missing my point. What do you want Apple to do about it? They gave everyone a free case with which it works fine. It wasn't a quality issue, it was a design issue. These are different things. No amount of QA will fix a design issue.

What possible other response from a customer service perspective could you want here?

He doesn't request a "pony from apple now" but a working phone. If you don't see the difference here, then sorry, but I don't understand your point.

I believe (and some quick Googling corroborates) that the iPhone 5 has a completely different antennae setup. I believe they also tweaked it for the CDMA iPhone 4 and all the 4S models, so perhaps you've not been having a problem because they fixed it.

Antennagate was way overblown, but it was a real issue for some people. With the right combination of specific unit (varying tolerances for the antenna / radio assembly) and cell phone coverage, you would run into problems.

The iPhone 4S and 5 has a different antenna design and (i think) has some kind of coating on the metal frame to lessen the issue.

I recently removed my iPhone 4 cover because I was sick of it and suddenly it was dropping calls and losing signal when I was holding it in my hand. I never had any of these issues back in Holland either (better signal perhaps?) but here in SF the problem is very real.

I never had a problem with the antenna on my iPhone 4... Until I switched to t-mobile. Then it was a noticeable problem. I could force it into 'searching' mode just by holding it wrong.

First gen iPhone here, still going strong. Thanks.

Well, that one data point certainly disproves the entire argument.

You forgot iPod batteries that die after (warrantly length+1) months.

I don't see it as spam, I see it as a necessary part of getting the kinks worked out ahead of when we middle-adopters buy the 2nd or 3rd gen products. The more bloggers gripe about these problems the more likely Apple will have prioritized fixing them before the next generation comes out.

So we grade Apple on a curve? We let other manufacturers get away with it because they are not Apple? Because that is what is happening. Apple aren't the only company that positions themselves as premium and they sure as heck aren't the only company that sells $3000 dollar laptops that may (or may not, mainly may not) develop faults. HP and Lenovo for instance...

This is the reason why I bought a top end early 2011 MBP rather than the newest widget version. I knew that was the end of a long line, but should last a fair amount of abuse for some time to come.

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