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Comment by ekall | Hacker News Reader

I think this kind of comment where you share the sentiment that you will ultimately admit defeat emboldens the factions that are hoping for people to be like you. I also think these kinds of comments may also bring doubt to people considering resisting these kinds of concessions.

In other words I think the people pushing these kinds of "identification" methods would love you for spreading their silent message of this being unavoidable knowingly or unknowingly.

Even if what you say is correct let's not make it easier for people wanting to enshittify the future, yeah?

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Are you really advocating for suppressing rational assessments for the likelihood of success because you think the analysis is too discouraging?

If you already agree the resistance will ultimately lead nowhere, why not focus that energy on something with a better chance of success? Best guess would be partnering with someone like the EFF for a solution through lobbying And the courts.

Is it all that rational?

If everyone thinks so, then surely yes, but if people realize, that change starts in the small and they can be part of the change, perhaps at some personal cost, but that it might be worth it, then suddenly change is possible.

How have the EFF and the courts worked so far? We do need an EFF, but they're clearly not all that effective. And the courts just won't do anything unless someone does something illegal.

Compared to “resist by opting out”, the EFF has been much more successful. So far I’m not aware of any meaningful change in tech enshitification from grassroots opting out (could certainly be missing some instances, though, happy to be told about any). The EFF has at least had some notable wins in crypto export, fighting copyright enforcement abuses, limiting certain types of surveillance (license plate readers in California for example), and right to repair.

I’m not saying they have been enough to prevent things from getting worse, but they have actually done things that have staying power, and affect policy to this day, which is better than the track record of opting out as far as I know.

Cynicism isn't knowledge. Cynicism isn't an assessment.

Cynicism is an assumption. Cynicism is emotional armor because the thought of caring again and the risk of it not panning out is more painful than not caring at all.

The only rational aspect of cynicism is that it makes you feel better. It isn't relevant about one's actual ability to change the world.

If efforts in the past didn't work to affect political change? Change what you do. Change your tactics. Clearly many groups - including ones with little-to-no-money - can and do succeed to influence policy on a regular basis.

The worst thing you can do is to convince others not to do anything about it. And right after that is to do nothing about it yourself.

When has this tactic (opting out to force change) ever worked on problems of any meaningful scale before? Please don’t say the civil rights movement, because those boycotts were not effective on their own. Pressure is required to force change, and opting out does not produce the necessary pressure unless it is genuinely a significant portion of users and lasts years.

These strategies have been tried time and time again and have proved not to be strong enough to overcome economic forces.

Why not look at almost every single interest group that has managed to influence local politics?

Ever pay attention to all those groups (private sector or otherwise) that end up influencing policy creation? Ever think of trying to get other government agencies or already-trusted organizations on your side as opposed to trying to establish yourself as a credible voice to ocotogenarians who can't tell the difference between an expert and someone blowing smoke?

Finding allies to support your policy goals doesn't need to stop at asking random people on the Internet. It's a woefully underexplored area for Internet freedom activists.

I think we agree on that. Special interest groups proactively push for things, they don't just opt out and hope people notice. I am arguing for lobbying and special interest groups (that's why I suggested the EFF as an example, although certainly not the only one).

Coalitions help. Getting local government agencies on your side to promote local government policy helps.

Same concept applies to federal.

I just wanted to tell you that I wholeheartedly agree with your statement and that you shouldn’t be discouraged by some of the nay-sayers in the replies. I feel that HN has many users who are techno-optimist, but are very pessimistic of the role of individuals and the possibilities of the society overall.

Even in the replies someone tries to appeal to some ideal of „rationalism“ which is nothing but defeatism to the status quo. They see any kind of passion, emotion or values as „irrational“ and categorically as something lesser.

But what is reason without values? Logic without axioms? Just treading in the trivial waters.

There is a term for what you describe. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Useful_idiot

If I have no choice, and no alternative, what can I do? I will never use an OS that require it on the OS level, and nobody can mandate it, not to a Linux user as myself - there will always be "another distro". But as a company director I have a legal requirement to verify my identity with my face. That's one. Every CCTV camera I pass by London, I assume is likely to have some soft of potential face recognition. Every transfer type transaction I do with my bank app requires me to face-up. So fine, I will skip Facebook or Instagram, but where will I get my cat-video dopamine fix?

I don't see myself as admitting defeat here. I'm choosing my battles. The gov here will drive this through as we're stuck with them until 2029. I'm considering (with a heavy heart) to leave the UK and this is just one nail in a coffin full of nails.

Leaving is unfortunately kind of the only option, but I worry other countries are just going to follow this process too.

Where else to go? AFAIK most developed countries are increasing surveillance efforts. I’m not aware of many that aren’t involved in pushing some kind of anti-E2EE or facial recognition at airports or VPN regulation or most any other issue de jour.

Regardless, no matter where you are (besides China or Russia) you’re at least partially subject to USA jurisdiction as demonstrated by their Executive Order 14203 which implemented asset freezes and travel bans on ICC officials, judges, and prosecutors — effectively unilaterally “de-banking” EU bureaucrats over the objections of the EU.

https://courthousenews.com/cut-off-by-their-banks-and-even-i...

They won’t be emboldened by this comment, they will be emboldened when their internal data shows they aren’t losing users at a rate high enough to change their behavior.

Which will be partly because of this comment.

I think the kind of comment you're making here is wishful thinking. Raging into the void and then getting mad when everyone doesn't do the same is not an effective way to force change. It's just an effective way to make you feel good.

I find it strange for these people to accept such a defeatist attitude because I'm the opposite.

I mean I will just not use the service and I'll seek out alternatives that are open source or create my own. I'll do anything possible until I'm the last one standing if that's what it comes down too.

I tried to sign up to Telnyx and they had the same crap from an unreliable data-breach and being-litigated persona identifier. I passed on that.

I've already been going down this road as I've abandoned Google and some of the big cloud providers in favor of smaller companies who aren't pushing these policies.

It isn't hard to click cancel. It's just people favor convenience over their own freedom because they have never experienced not having freedom like our founder's did 250 years ago. The problem is once freedom is gone, getting it back requires blood spilled and political reforms and revolutions based on what history teaches us.

The British crown never gave away the control, it is just obfuscated through the British-owned offshore financial networks. The Epstein files make this abundantly clear.

We are currently ruled by the third generation of post-WW2 five eyes nepo kids, with all problems this entails. The feel-good narrative about US was spun by Hollywood, but the old money of British aristocracy never went away. All the "self-made billionaires" who receive a Lordship title from the King just so the commoners work even more because they think they have a fair shot.

If someone like Ghislaine Maxwell applies for a visa in their colony USA, she receives a vanity social security number "Leet Babe" (1337 84883).

Most people use social media such as discord or whatsapp in order to make social activities and communities simple with the majority of their friends. A majority of people do not give a shit about integrity. The only group I have ever managed to convince and actually use Signal for messaging out of all my groups of friends and peers is the Computer Science Dept PhD students.

For most people, it's not realistic to give up their social bonds, they are too far in. If you are hoping for some revolution or change in this aspect is way too late. You can have small fringe groups engaging in this, but at the end of the day you are overestimating how many people actually give a shit.

Smart and driven people wasting time on ideas that have been tested time and time through to be ineffective is not net good for society.

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