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Comment by MBlume | Hacker News Reader

I'd much rather be surrounded by people wearing earbuds than have people watching tiktoks through their phone speakers on the subway

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That just sounds like another version of what the author is talking about: using [device] to avoid human interaction.

In a really big and busy city it's emotionally exhausting and not reasonable to have an interaction with everyone near you. The only way a lot of people can tolerate being packed into busy public transit systems on a daily basis is to intentionally ignore each other to a certain degree.

It's essentially the same unspoken etiquette rule as what you're socially expected to do if riding a crowded elevator.

Go commute by NYC subway 10 times a week, M-F especially during peak tourist season and you'll understand.

I intentionally behave completely different if I'm in a small town of 3000 people or walking down the street, shopping, riding transit in a large city.

100 years ago they sold pocket sized books so people in cities could ignore each other by reading books.

Also there's plenty of old timey black and white photos of people riding the LIRR or similar where everyone is holding and reading a newspaper.

Ah, it’s reading that’s the problem. Plato/Socrates/Thamus was onto something!

and people still try and suggest public transport is great, when its a hellhole..

It really depends, I would much rather travel by NYC subway or Vancouver SkyTrain or Seattle light rail if my origin and destination are within walking distance. It's the least horrible option in many cases. Good luck to anyone's stress level and pocketbook trying to commute by car in much of NYC and pay $550 a month for parking.

$550 is a steal.

Right, I could have written that much more pessimistically with 850/mo parking, insurance, congestion charges 5 days a week x 2, cost of car insurance, maintenance, fuel, cost of the car itself, etc.

The insurance in NYC is at least twice the rest of the country and then there is the likelihood your car will be hit or stolen while you're away, meaning at the very least it will be in the shop for a while. People I know who had cars in Manhattan or Brooklyn still took the train most of the time, leaving the car in the garage.

I have a hot take about commuting by car from the suburbs into midtown Manhattan (the densest part). The trick is time of day. If you are a gov't bond trader, it it is pretty normal to get to the office around 6AM. You can easily beat morning traffic arriving that early. Also, your day ends very early, so the return commute is also easy.

That doesn't sound like much of a useful trick, unless you plan on switching professions to bond trader.

This is a classic myopic HN reply. I will be downvoted for this harsh response: You fuckin' dummy, "bond trader" was an example profession that is (1) high income and (2) needs to arrive early to work. Probably most lawyers and many medical doctors would be simliar. Also, if you own multiple pizza stores that need to get started early, the same rules would apply.

It was an intentionally myopic reply. Most jobs have fixed start times that people can't change around to avoid traffic unless you want to add an extra hour of dawdling before and after work. When someone complains about commute traffic, do you suggest they switch profession to lawyer?

There's no "trick" here. Its just a repackaged form of what literally every commuter knows that leaving early can beat traffic.

because it has other people on it? personally I find that sitting down and getting passively carried near to my destination is way less stressful than paying attention to the road that whole time - not to mention finding parking. You don't end up exactly at your destination, but a little bit of walking is good for you.

Assuming you live in a locale with a reasonably efficient system. I've heard some horror stories about north american public transport. Other countries tend to do much better with timetables and routes.

I've never caught a train nor a bus in my life and intend to never do so. I value my privacy and don't want to get stabbed or sit on a chair where someone has pissed all over.

Tell me you're an American that lives in a 100% car dependent community without coming right out and saying it. Say no more, we get it.

Australia.

Australian public transport is pretty good in my experience. I certainly don't expect to be stabbed or sit in piss.

And you drive?

https://www.youtube.com/@DashCamOwnersAustralia

Am European, at least in the big cities, public transport is mostly not worth using unless you are too poor to afford better options.

Too crowded, too hot, there’s a decent chance of arriving at your destination drenched in sweat. Not to mention how absolutely gross the people sitting next to you will often be.

I’ll happily take a few parking fines every day rather than getting in the tube.

Nobody uses it, it's too crowded

How can it be crowded if nobody uses it?

that's the point.

It’s a famous “Yogi-ism”[0]

> On why he no longer went to Ruggeri's, a St. Louis restaurant: "Nobody goes there anymore. It's too crowded.”

0: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yogi_Berra

People mostly use it because they can’t afford the better options.

McDonald’s is also extremely popular, as are Coca Cola and Bud light.

I extensively use public transit. While the cost savings are certainly nice, it is just soo much more comfortable.

Today I spent half my workday on a train going +200km/h to visit my parents. The alternative would have been an excruciating 6 hour car drive

> Today I spent half my workday on a train going +200km/h to visit my parents. The alternative would have been an excruciating 6 hour car drive

You are describing an experience which couldn’t be further from the norm in Europe.

high speed trains, that can go up to about 350kmph/200mph, are the norm in Europe if you're going a long distance across France or Germany, but they're not daily public transit for most people just like flying isn't.

I could afford a car and I also live in a big European city. But a car is a huge hassle here. Just trying to figure out where to park the thing every time is a huge stressor. I'm so glad I don't have to deal with that anymore. Nor the fuel, the fines, the maintenance, the insurance, the road tax, the parking fees all that stuff. I could afford it but I'd rather spend it on something I actually enjoy.

Public transport here costs a fixed fee a month for which I couldn't even top up a quarter tank.

I need only one crowded Tube ride without air conditioning before a meeting for the total cost of car ownership to appear like an incredible bargain.

Oh the tube here has aircon everywhere. A bit too much even, you get this cold shock every time.

It sounds like a dream. Well air-conditioned public transport can certainly be a wonderful experience. I was a huge fan of the MTR when living in Hong Kong.

Unfortunately those implementations are far from the norm though, but of course all of these networks are seeing gradual upgrades.

How about in European big cities where that is not the case? Prague, London, Prague, Budapest, Zurich, Madrid, Berlin, Vienna…? So many people, especially not particularly poor people, use them to commute every single week. Notoriously, for some of these cities, it is slower to travel by car for your commute.

I live in London, temperatures in excess of 30C are frequent on the Tube. If I’m going to or coming from the gym, that’s fine. Otherwise it really isn’t.

The metro in Prague is indeed good, it’s just not a big city.

Zurich also has excellent public transport, but it’s really a village at best.

Madrid has Barcelona beat, but still occasionally suffers from a lack of air conditioning frequently leading to absurd temperatures.

TIL Zurich is a village

There’s not even half a million people living in Zurich; it is absolutely tiny, which is basically the entirety of its charm.

I also live in London and never specified underground or trains only for any of these cities. Buses also cheap and air conditioned.

Also 2-4 months at best out of the year is not a great argument for public transportation not being the better option compared to cars and parking that don’t scale.

Side note, Elizabeth, District, Circle, Hammersmith & city, and Metropolitan lines where many people work are air conditioned. So are the trains to paddington and St. Pancras from any “village” outside of the London zones. This summer especially it’s been good for me.

Don’t get me wrong, there’s a plenty of good public transport in London. I’m just of the opinion that unless you happen to live on a particularly good route, the experience is too inconsistent.

I love the trains, Gatwick express is downright brilliant.

> Also 2-4 months at best out of the year is not a great argument for public transportation not being the better option compared to cars and parking that don’t scale.

Temperatures in packed tube carriages are very high no matter the time of the year, the bodies of the passengers alone put out sufficient heat.

When the AC works, that’s fine. My experience is that it fails far more often than I’m willing to accept.

how can you read this comment back to yourself and not see the delusion?

Don't knock it until you've tried it.

You've never tried it but are still convinced it's a hellhole? I took a bus and train downtown yesterday and it was a perfectly smooth experience. And at least as far as I noticed, nobody stabbed anyone or pissed in any seats.

You should try expanding your horizons a bit.

It's not. I really like public transport. It is cheap (I pay 22 euros a month unlimited), I can do something I like like reading or watching something. I don't have to worry about when my parking expires or having to return to a car. It's pretty ideal IMO.

You do have to ignore the people around yes but I don't find that a problem at all.

The only interaction you’re missing in ops post is politely asking them to turn it down and being told very aggressively to “shut the fuck up!”.

Or getting killed for it.

https://youtu.be/D1GyHQiuneU

I don't think that's it. I think highly anti-social behavior is often deliberate, looking for someone to challenge you. An exertion of power. That's why pretty much everyone learns to ignore the behavior and not say anything.

I remember in the 70s and 80s people on buses and subways reading magazines and newspapers. The idea that electronic devices have ushered in some age where humans want to interact with each other less is a myth I think.

There seems to be an overall, “I’m just now aware of this phenomenon, technology must be to blame” when the phenomenon has stayed constant and the tech has shifted under it.

#moraloutrage

Did nobody read TFA?

> Americans are speaking less and less to one another. The number of spoken words uttered by the average person fell by 28% between 2005 and 2019.

Doesn't mean they communicate less. A lot of phone conversations have pivoted to text/whatsapp.

The other related phenomenon is "I dont believe culture and society can change, so I pick something I am vaguely aware of existing in the past. The people who are old enough to be there know the comparison makes no sense, but it allow me to stop the discussion about change".

Like, there was some reading of newspapers and magazines, but not that much. They were large, you know. Most people stared silently out of the window. Multiple people reading newspapers on the bus would be rare occurrence. And it was NOT noisy unlike tiktok video.

Also "Father hiding behind his newspaper at the dinner table" has been a meme since forever.

Newspapers have probably been used for this on subways for this as long as subways have been around. Walkmen in the 80s.

Take me back to a simpler time in America when newspapers were used for just getting the news, and not for premodern TikTok stand-ins.

Sure, in the same way that taking a leak in a toilet and taking a leak on the sidewalk are both ways of avoiding wetting your pants

If you can't or won't illustrate why the two are similar, avoid making the analogy. It just invites a fork in the conversation where people are going to argue "actually it's like a homeless guy taking a shit in my glove box," and other spurious diversions.

The point is that just because two things are used to avoid a third thing doesn't mean they're comparable when one of them is much less disruptive to those around you. There are people who don't think being forced into interactions because there didn't happen to be a way to decline without being considered rude is a better state that allowing people to opt out. Framing it as "both are examples of the same problem" is based on the (in my opinion flawed) premise that it's an objective problem in the first place rather than the previous social norm that was tilted towards extroverts now having more accomodations for those who aren't as extroverted.

As is driving alone in a car

Coincidentally, the latter increases the number of the former. Most people are going to avoid confrontation and instead opt for their personal noise cancelation.

> Most people are going to avoid confrontation

Yeah buying airpods seems like better idea than being stabbed/beaten up

There is an even worse thing. Using speakerphone while on street, while holding the phone near ear anyway.

those are just people with bad manners.

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