The Pirate Bay Trial Day 3: The ‘King Kong’ Defense
torrentfreak.com
torrentfreak.com
And you should not be able to claim lost sales for something you are not currently selling or plan to sell in immediate future.
The reason for this is that I think their user demographics are shifted towards people that do not really want to pay for content ;)
This ought to be a conversation about intellectual property. If you believe in it, there is little justification for the legality of TPB. If you don't, then TPB is fine.
The defense's arguments seem juvenile.
Or maybe someone can explain to me why helping people break the law should be legal.
Arguing minutiae might be a good way to win in court. But outside of court, the term "legalistic" has a negative connotation. Legalistic arguments are seldom a good way to convince people that you are right. I don't understand why they seem to convinced so many people with such a legalistic defense.
Does Google break the law because it makes it easy for me to search for mp3s to download? Or are they providing a useful service, and in doing do creating functionality that makes it possible to do illegal things?
ThePirateBay is an extension of that idea: if you make a service, even if that service breaks laws you are not to blame. And TPB is pretty much at the limit of that: they mock the people who've been stolen, they openly admit they help pirates - and yet, they themselves have done nothing wrong. They provide a service. They're allowed to call attention to the laws broken by their users and it's still not breaking the law.
Arguing minutiae might be a good way to win in court.
It's not minutiae. I find it a pretty repugnant attitude, this assumption that things ought to be black-and-white simple. They haven't broken the law. That's why they're winning. It's like this: if somebody asks me where they can download an album for free, because I know and they don't, if I tell them I'm not breaking the law. I'm merely being useful. That's what TPB's done. They don't steal movies. They don't host stolen content. They merely make it easy for people to find it, and that's shady, but not illegal.
But outside of court, the term "legalistic" has a negative connotation.
For me, "legalistic" has a pretty positive connotation. It implies that there's thought behind a process, and that logic is being used. It's a lot better than "impulsive judgement," which is what you're using. You don't defend your points. You just assume that they're bad and wrong and that we're all stupid to be defending it - that despite the many, many stories posted here that explain very specifically the rights that ThePirateBay has.
I don't understand why they seem to convinced so many people with such a legalistic defense.
Partly because a lot of us like free stuff, yes. But partly it's because a lot of people care about this stuff, and we think the RIAA is just as shady as ThePirateBay, and we want to see a new method come in that doesn't allow a bunch of legal-minded people with no appreciation for music and music distribution to cheat bands out of money, to deny a lot of musicians the right to profit, and to pursue draconic punishments for the people who speak out against them.
Google isn't hosting the files that point to trackers and ultimately other peers to download from.
There are cases similar to this: Galoob v Nintendo. In this case Galoob was cleared of charges as it was found that users of Game Genie, while altering games, were not creating derivative works that violated Copyright.
Kelly v. Arriba Soft Corporation Professional photographer vs image search service. It was decided since Arriba was just showing thumbnails and did not have the actual files on their servers they were in the clear.
I personally think the charges are a little out of hand. That said if you don't have rights to the files you are doing something wrong. The repercussions of the pirate bay winning or losing this case are definitely going to be interesting.
That said, my thoughts are based on US copyright.
Please mod me down, but this case is a bit more complicated than "I like to torrent Music" and other self-serving interests.
The problem with this case is that TPB isn't US. Sweden laws say they're fine.
*sometimes
That's a valid position that can be argued. This position just seems childish to me, and not a brilliant defense as some say.
If I sold guns in packages with maps and schedules of the daily habits of people's enemies, who later ended up dead, I am pretty sure they would still lock me up for being an accessory to murder. As they ought. On another thread, Pirate Bay's defenders said that such a business should be legal, too, as the businessman isn't actually doing anything wrong.
That, to me, is a sign that they have sacrificed prudence in support of their agenda.
I like The Pirate Bay. I want to see them survive. That doesn't mean I have to accept bad arguments just because I am on their side.
Defenders do say that. I say that. The point I was making is that TPB isn't breaking the law. Even if they're helping other people break it, they themselves are innocent.
To use your gun analogy, if, rather than selling guns, you're the guy that gives directions to people looking for guns, then you're innocent. You're not touching the guns. You're just handing out directions.
That's a valid position that can be argued. This position just seems childish to me, and not a brilliant defense as some say.
A bunch of amateurs are beating powerful corporations in court. That's maybe not brilliant, but it's certainly impressive.
The RIAA is shady and music labels give bands a hard deal, no doubt about that. But what makes you think that bands will be able to turn a profit when everything is free? Where there is no scarcity, there is no price.
Music is broken.
Maybe it is a positive social good that the RIAA blokes have to go find new jobs, but the bands get screwed either way.
There you go again. (I'm very sorry that you're getting picked on in this thread, but you're throwing up a straw man that's very conveniently simple to argue against.) Your assumption is that the current model of music - the broken one - is the only possible model of music. It's not. There are certainly solutions to be had. The problem is that the RIAA is not taking said solutions.
The company to root for is the company that figures out a model that works for bands despite pirating and an oversaturated market. Thinking there's no hope won't help anything.
I don't see how Pirate Bay's model helps this, though perhaps it is no worse than the current industry model.
The solution is to figure out how to many money despite the unending piracy. The RIAA thinks the solution is to sue the pirates, which is stupid, because the pirates are only doing what feels natural. Models exist that can work alongside piracy. Take, for instance, the pay-what-you-want, model, the pay-to-ensure-release model, and the 70%-free model. Three systems that all have been earning bands money.
iTunes is not the ultimate solution; it may be the ultimate sales interface. There are still better methods of distribution.
When the logical weakness of the defense's argument is combined with their showy grandstanding - well it looks like the adults are suing the children in this case. People here seem to be enjoying their antics, but to me it makes them look non-serious.
Edit: The Pirate Bay's fans are pretty annoying and un-serious, too. There is no nuance to their thoughts. Take a look at this comment thread:
http://torrentfreak.com/u2s-new-album-leaks-early-despite-pr...
I wouldn't want to sit down to a cup of coffee with any of those people, that's for sure.
In most jurisdictions file sharing is legal, it depends on what you share that decides whether it is illegal or legal, and even the file sharing of copyrighted works is legal in some jurisdictions.
Pointing to illegal files is illegal in some places (for instance in the Netherlands), though the legal grounds of this decision are very shaky.
The copyright backed media industry is fighting a rearguard action here, they know they are losing, they just want to milk the cow a little longer.
With storage costs fast approaching zero and transport cost per bit fast approaching zero it is really only a matter of time before you can carry any content you'd ever want to consume in your whole lifetime in your inside pocket.
Perhaps any group planning on bringing this kind of case to bear should require that every member of the prosecution team use torrent sites for a number of months before they start the case. Know thy enemy. At least that way, they'd have first hand knowledge of how torrents work and what the technical details actually are, so as not to come off looking like complete idiots when they get half their charges thrown out almost immediately.
But then I guess there's the risk that prosecutors might change sides? :P
"You honor there would be a 10x reduction in robberies if it was not for the defendant's complete disregard for civil order and their criminal insistence on making available dangerous technological gadgets that enable and facilitate criminals escaping with their ill-gotten gains at speeds upwards of 100mph!" <optionally slam hand on desk and stare at jury over top of glasses for effect>
You see, the getaway man doesn't actually rob the bank. He doesn't steal anything. He doesn't even know why his friend wanted a ride to the bank. He gives his friend rides all the time, and most of those rides are perfectly legal.
Too bad, he still gets locked up.
here I did a copy paste for you
They seem to present themselves as if they were doing this purely out of love or their beliefs, while serving some of the most atrocious ads on the www.
I see them constantly mocking the media's business interests while they themselves have obviously a big money interest on the matter.
I think that makes them less virtuous.
http://blog.brokep.com/2008/04/14/maybe-a-grant/
Hey brokep: How about doing something similar with the cash from all the porn ads?
I also find it unreassuring to see he isn't interested in proposed flat-rate compensation schemes:
http://blog.brokep.com/2007/12/06/the-problems-with-a-flatra...
Maybe he thinks artists should only be compensated for live shows. Those who can't should probably tend bar or something.
That post isn't just about the technical problems though, for example:
"We’re paying a tax to a system not needed anymore. The record industry is passé and we do not need nor want them anymore."
I'm not one to defend the decrepit record industry but that's just avoiding the real issue. Is compensating artists considered passe now too?
I'm not one to defend the decrepit record industry but that's just avoiding the real issue. Is compensating artists considered passe now too?
That's regarding the idea of buying records - the money from most of which goes directly to the record industry. Different models work in different ways.
Well in the proposed flat-rate scenario there would be no need for distinction.
>That's regarding the idea of buying records - the money from most of which goes directly to the record industry. Different models work in different ways.
The post was talking about the flat-rate scenario not buying records, in any case it's obvious the record industry model is dead as it currently exists. That doesn't mean we shouldn't think about viable ways of compensating artists.
The tricky part is obviously in how to fairly distribute the money, and this is where tracking what gets listened or downloaded comes into play.