If your view is merely that there is a "camp" of experts that disagrees, then sure, but in that case, I do not think it is honest to frame this as a choice between believing in the authority of a single expert from that camp, vs. the (lack of) authority of me, a non-expert.
(I also think your read of the evidence is wrong, but I won't restate the arguments in my article.)
Also, I didn't say anything about the evidence (I don't have a "read" on the evidence, because I don't read Alz literature). My point is entirely that my priors indicate that Derek is a more reliable reader than you.
Why do you continue to frame this as a choice between a single cherry-picked expert's opinion, and my own non-expert opinion? Either fairly represent the spectrum of experts' views, or decide based on the actual evidence and arguments.
I've seen this happen before, btw- overturning establishment paradigms, especially ones where the underlying etiology is complex- is extremely hard and often takes decades of experimental results.
Arguing from authority really only takes you so far when it ends up as an appeal to your personal experience. I'd rather you either address the arguments directly, or drop the dubious appeal to authority.
It’s poor science to make an argument on authority, if you know the science then you should be quoting the published research and not relying on others so called expertise.
One thing that has gone mostly unsaid in this thread is that scientists lie when they publish. Not every scientist, and not every publication, but significant fraction of papers contain true errors or omissions intentionally added by the paper authors. Learning how to read a paper and translate the bullshit takes some time, and usually requires a fairly deep understanding of the state of the art of the field.
I don't think you're obliged to discredit any argument made from authority (we're not making true logical arguments here, we're working in a real world space with ambiguouity).
Then the next question becomes 'which expert to trust'? which is a subjective judgement; personally, after polling many different experts, the "go look for other causes of alzheimer's" experts seemed to have the most compelling biological narrative.
It's time for the inflammation / diabetes / infection / metabolic dysfunction / liver dysfunction folks to get more money to test their theories.
>I don't have a "read" on the evidence, because I don't read Alz literature
these two sentences seem contradictory to me. i am not sure how you would keep up on the research (to know it's moved from majority-held to minority-held view), and know that the move is not reflected in the literature, without reading the literature.
The raw literature for alzheimer's, as well as biomed in general, is not really easily interpretable. It's rife with errors, misleading statements, and intentional obfuscation.
https://stanforddaily.com/2023/12/31/blockbuster-alzheimers-...
The strength of the amyloid hypothesis is that it is currently the only way to unify early onset AD that is caused by mutations in APP and presenilin with the pathology of both early and late set AD.
The weakness is that experimental mice expressing mutated APP do not get neurodegeneration, despite showing amyloid accumulation and behavioral defects.
Mice expressing mutated presenilin in contrast do get both behavioral defects and neurodegeneration, despite showing no accumulation of amyloid.
"Perhaps mice are different" is the usual response/excuse.
This defense is considerably weaker now, given the very modest benefits of removing amyloid from the human brain, as shown in recent clinical trials.
So.... when considered rigorously, the amyloid hypothesis remains to be proven.
However, it will always have its supporters until there is an alternate explation for the convergence of mutations in APP and presenilin on precisely that region of APP that generates amyloid.
Causal intervention on amyloid+tau mice is consistent with causal mediation from longitudinal human neuroimaging data: the amyloid pathology greatly accelerates tau pathology, and then this causes neurodegeneration.
One may then ask, what is being remedied in the many, many, studies that claim to successfully target amyloid toxicity in mice? And is this relevant to the processes that occur in AD?
Human pathology studies are limited in ability to determine causal agents because they are primarily observational, i.e. they find correlations, show that changes in certain other proteins or processes are associated, such as tau that you mention, inflammation, etc. Or as you mention, show that the pathological hallmarks of AD have a stereotypical order of appearance.
However, the only human studies that can demonstrate cause in AD are genetic studies.
One may then ask, what is being remedied in the many, many, studies that claim to successfully target amyloid toxicity in mice? And is this relevant to the processes that occur in AD?
I don't think studies rescuing cognitive deficits in amyloid-only mice are convincing evidence for the amyloid hypothesis, precisely because we know amyloid is not the proximate cause of neurodegeneration in actual Alzheimer's disease, and that proximate cause does not exist in those mice.
In other words, these mice are not faithful recapitulations of the full disease. They have their amyloid production turned up so far that their amyloid pathology seems to cause cognitive deficits, but that's not what's happening in humans. They are, at best, a good vehicle for testing specific narrow hypotheses about amyloid production and clearance. The field has largely moved on from amyloid-only mice as a direct predictor of clinical efficacy, and that was the right call.
Human pathology studies are limited in ability to determine causal agents because they are primarily observational, i.e. they find correlations, show that changes in certain other proteins or processes are associated, such as tau that you mention, inflammation, etc. Or as you mention, show that the pathological hallmarks of AD have a stereotypical order of appearance.
Here is some data in living humans, besides genetics, that has relevance to causation, in my opinion:
- The location and severity of amyloid pathology is a poor spatiotemporal match to the sites of neuronal volume loss, and to the severity and nature of clinical deficits. However, the location and severity of tau pathology is a very good match to both of these things. Of course, since these observations are correlational in nature, they don't absolutely prove a specific causal theory. But they do rule out, for example, the idea that amyloid is proximately connected (by which I mean nearby somewhere in the causal graph) to the process of neurodegeneration, whereas tau seems to be very proximately connected. From this observation alone tau could be downstream or sidestream rather than upstream, but it does then suggest that whatever causes tau pathology is itself upstream of neurodegeneration, since correlations always have a cause (the correct statement that "correlation ≠ causation" simply means "correlation between A and B does not imply that A causes B", but the explanation must be either A causes B, B causes A, or C causes both A and B).
- Anti-amyloid antibodies which remove plaque in humans cause downstream reductions in tau pathology in humans, and, separately, have clinical benefits in those humans.
- The spatiotemporal progression of amyloid and tau pathology is highly consistent with the hypothesis that amyloid pathology greatly worsens the tau pathology, but not vice versa. And there's not an alternative explanation I've come across for this fact than that amyloid pathology worsens tau pathology.
All of the above facts are generally true in combined amyloid+tau mouse models as well as in vitro human cell studies, which is some reason to believe these are closer to faithfully recapitulating the disease than the amyloid-only models. Once we believe that, we can then do more causal interventions on those models which we couldn't do in humans, and learn more about causality. For example, we know that intentionally worsening amyloid pathology in amyloid+tau mouse models also causes tau pathology and neurodegeneration to worsen in mouse models. And because these models look closer to the full disease than the amyloid-only models, this is at least relevant causal evidence, though we always have to be open to the possibility that the disease models are still missing some important elements.
I'm not aware of an alternative hypothesis to the (ATN) amyloid → tau → neurodegeneration model which synthesizes all of the above facts, along with the genetic evidence for amyloid's causal role which you referred to. By contrast, I'm not aware of any evidence inconsistent with the ATN model.
So, taking the amyloid hypothesis itself (putting presenilin aside for the time being).
We know that mutations in APP do cause AD. How? And if amyloid is not the "proximate" cause of AD, how do mutations in APP cause AD? Include in this Down syndrome, where >90% of cases develop early onset AD by age 50. They have an extra copy of APP that is not mutated.
Furthermore, people can accumulate large amounts of amyloid in the brain without having any notable dementia.
Adding tau to the equation does not help much in explaining how APP mutations cause AD. All people have tau. Furthermore, mutations in tau do not cause AD, they cause different neurodegenerative diseases (e.g. frontotemporal dementia).
Combining APP mutations with presenilin mutation and/or tau mutations in mice does lead to worse outcomes, but the same could be said for combining any other random set of neurodegeneration-associated gene mutations.
I agree that the specific molecular mechanism(s) is/are currently unknown. I've seen a number of proposals, but to my knowledge there isn't smoking-gun evidence for any one of them. But there can be causal evidence that A causes B (such as which I list) which exceeds a mere sequence of "A first, then B", and without knowing the specific mechanisms by which A causes B.
We know that mutations in APP do cause AD. How? And if amyloid is not the "proximate" cause of AD, how do mutations in APP cause AD? Include in this Down syndrome, where >90% of cases develop early onset AD by age 50. They have an extra copy of APP that is not mutated.
A bit confused by these questions, and I suspect the confusion may have to do with the term "proximate". By "amyloid is not the proximate cause of neurodegeneration", I simply mean it is upstream, mediated by another cause (namely tau). I think that clarification answers these questions.
Furthermore, people can accumulate large amounts of amyloid in the brain without having any notable dementia.
As predicted by the ATN model, at least for some time. But there is a threshold of amyloid pathology that does seem to guarantee progression to tau pathology and dementia.
Adding tau to the equation does not help much in explaining how APP mutations cause AD. All people have tau. Furthermore, mutations in tau do not cause AD, they cause different neurodegenerative diseases (e.g. frontotemporal dementia).
Sure, there are different tauopathies, each with a characteristic fold. All people have tau, but there's a specific AD tau fold emerging apparently from the locus coeruleus, then spreading to the hippocampus and entorhinal cortex, and it's this that seems heavily accelerated by the presence of amyloid pathology in humans. (By the way, a notable fact is that autosomal-dominant AD -- clearly caused by APP/PSEN1/PSEN2 mutations affecting amyloid production -- has the same tau fold as sporadic AD, even though the large majority of other tauopathies do not.)
Combining APP mutations with presenilin mutation and/or tau mutations in mice does lead to worse outcomes, but the same could be said for combining any other random set of neurodegeneration-associated gene mutations.
Note I didn't just say it "leads to worse outcomes". It's specifically that amyloid pathology worsens tau pathology, and then neurodegeneration occurs colocated with the tau pathology. This cannot be said for other random sets of mutations, in general.
(By the way, basically all of these points are discussed in the article I wrote which got linked above. You're under no obligation to read it but it might save us some time.)
Note that not all AD-causing mutations in APP also cause amyloid accumulation, for example APP-Osaka (loss of APP residue E693) results in familial AD without any accumulation of amyloid [0]. (One can ignore claims that this mutation increases Abeta oligomers, since the evidence is that Abeta oligomers are found at far too low concentrations in the human brain. They would have to be more toxic than ricin if they were etiological for AD). The oligomers seen on gels are an artefact, see the controversy surrounding Tessier-Lavigne).
As you state, and I agree, APP is upstream of tau in natural AD pathogenesis, but does not cause neurodegeneration in mice. So we still don't know from direct experimentation how APP leads to tauopathy and neuodegeneration. The evidence that this is through Abeta per se is tentative at best.
[0] A Second Pedigree with Amyloid-less Familial Alzheimer’s Disease Harboring an Identical Mutation in the Amyloid Precursor Protein Gene (E693delta) https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25743013/
This is interestingly similar to the Arctic Mutation, and in the same codon no less: no plaque, but still autosomal-dominant AD due to an APP mutation. I had previously taken the Arctic Mutation to be evidence that it's not plaque per se, put more likely protofibrils (which are components of plaques in normal AD, and still present under the Arctic Mutation) or precursor aggregates which are pathogenic. The fact that the Osaka Mutation blocks protofibril formation underlines the uncertainty, that you and I agree exists, on the detailed molecular mechanisms. I would be inclined to point then to oligomers, but you say the oligomers are found at far too low concentrations to be relevant — what's your source for this?
As you state, and I agree, APP is upstream of tau in natural AD pathogenesis, but does not cause neurodegeneration in mice. So we still don't know from direct experimentation how APP leads to tauopathy and neuodegeneration. The evidence that this is through Abeta per se is tentative at best.
Not only APP, but also PS1+PS2 mutations of course, can cause ADAD, and the relevant mutations all seem to cause more Abeta42 production. In the sporadic case, production usually seems unchanged, but clearance is usually impaired (especially with ApoE4). What they all seem to have in common is amyloid production or clearance. I'm curious if you know of another pathway they have in common besides this. Otherwise it's hard to see what the alternative hypothesis is, which could explain the etiology of seemingly highly-similar disease trajectories (ADAD + sporadic AD).
I’ll add as an addendum: APP mutations do cause neurodegeneration in mice, if those mice are combined amyloid+tau models. This seems most faithful to the human disease.
This is why researchers now most often use the 5XFAD mouse, which has APP with three mutations, and presenilin with two mutations (hence 5 FAD mutations) [0]. Note however that mutated presenilin alone is enough to cause neurodegeneration in mice, such mice however do not accumulate amyloid, which is why mutated APP in added to make the pathology more "realistic".
As to Aβ42, there are mutations in APP which cause familial AD, but produce exclusively Aβ40, e.g. APP A673V [1]. Note also that most studies report alterations in the ratio of Aβ42 to Aβ40, precisely because effects on the levels of Aβ production are inconsistent across APP mutations.
Nevertheless..... and despite my obvious skepticism towards the amyloid toxicity hypothesis, the mutations in APP that cause AD all cluster in or near the region of the protein that is Aβ. There must be a reason for that. It is also in contrast to presenilin, where the mutations are distributed throughout the molecule, indication a loss of presenilin function causes AD.
One alternate explanation to Aβ or oligomer toxicity is proposed toxicity of the immediate precursor to Aβ, i.e. the APP C-terminal fragment (CTF), see for example the recent paper below and references therein [2].
[0] https://www.alzforum.org/research-models/5xfad-b6sjl
[1] A Recessive Mutation in the APP Gene with Dominant-Negative Effect on Amyloidogenesis https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC2728497/
[2] APP β-CTF triggers cell-autonomous synaptic toxicity independent of Aβ https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC12017768/
As you have demonstrated an interest in this topic, but are not an active researcher, I suggest that you become familiar with Alzforum [www.alzforum.org]. It provides reputable summaries and comments from leading researchers on topical issues and papers in Alzheimer's and related neurodegenerative diseases.
They're still fairly technical, but not as dense as the original papers. Here is an example related to our discussion: https://www.alzforum.org/news/research-news/app-c-terminal-f...
I actually read your article some time ago, having found it via SSC. One comment I would make is that the pathology and genetics of AD implicate APP without much doubt. In the field, there isn't much argument against it, even by those who work on tau. Divergences in opinion more often focus on which is the better target for drug therapy.
For example, Derek Lowe's articles on AD do not argue against an APP-tau-neurodegeneration pathway (I am a regular reader of his blog), but argue that targeting amyloid is unlikely to work as a drug therapy. This argument is sometimes extended by Lowe and others to questioning whether Aβ per se is the agent that triggers the downstream effects of either mutating APP or otherwise disrupting its biology. It is possible that Aβ is a by-product of the "true" APP-triggered pathway, see the arguments in favor of C-terminal fragments I linked to earlier.
A fundamental problem the field faces is that it is difficult to experimentally induce actual AD in animals, and so it is difficult to scientifically test hypotheses as to what might cause it. Compare perhaps to something like diabetes. Exactly why mice do not develop realistic AD is unknown.
In addition, there have been literally hundreds of publications (minimum 300) claiming to reverse "Alzheimer's disease" in mice, and the only ones that have lead to any kind of meager success are those using the antibodies. The arguments made in the 2010 review below by Zahs and Ashe [0] remain mostly true sixteen years later.
The recent clinical trials, e.g. Lecanemab, are of interest not only because they might provide at least some benefit, but also because they might represent the first actual scientific experiments showing that removing Aβ can ameliorate the disease, even if only slightly because of the late stage at which they have so far been tested.
Currently ongoing trials using anti-Aβ antibodies and targeting earlier phases of the disease in those with inherited mutations are of keen interest. If these demonstrate clear prevention of disease progression, then the Aβ hypothesis can be considered tested and proven. If not, then the Aβ hypothesis should be abandoned. This would however still not disprove an APP-focused hypothesis.
[0] 'Too much good news' - are Alzheimer mouse models trying to tell us how to prevent, not cure, Alzheimer's disease? https://alzped.nia.nih.gov/sites/default/files/2022-09/zahs....
...and had also heard about how amyloid research had been based on bad/fraudulent research. One of the biggest scandals was by Tessier-Lavigne from Stanford, correct?