Kirkland Roundabouts
kirklandroundabouts.com
kirklandroundabouts.com
I definitely agree with all the critiques of the gameplay - and I have about 100 more. I cut it down to the bare essentials to get it done while it's still relevant in the community. I wouldn't even call it an MVP. I probably won't update this unless there is some greater need. Though using Godot with Claude Code was a blast so I'm motivated to do new stuff there. I've been building solutions on Unity/DX/Unreal for over a decade - Godot was such a breath of fresh air!
https://www.google.com/maps/@46.9995932,-122.9095898,279m/da...
This thing is a nightmare of newly constructed, but with poor signage, rapid lane changes required at times, and "wait, which roundabout?"
London has some specials too, including the traffic around Hyde Park Corner, which is like a roundabout in vacuum form. Should so much as a square foot of tarmac become vacant then it will magically suck in four taxis, two double decker buses and a dozen UberEats delivery guys, making any progress tough.
Chiswick roundabout, where the M4 motorway, gateway to the West, begins is also not for those lacking testicular fortitude, my mum got stuck going round and round that one, we weren't quite dizzy by the time we got off, but it was getting that way.
All is nothing though. You have got to do France, Arc de Triomphe. Cobblestones, many, many lanes, every car with dents in it and priority given to those entering the roundabout rather than those on it already. No American in an American vehicle would be able to make it through that one!
This would work, except that it exposed flaws in the controls/ etc and also sometimes the other cars would not yield. But not my fault! :)
I had to drive this specific Kirkland roundabout the other day, and ended up missing my offramp and going in completely the wrong direction. It's the most confusing roundabout I've ever seen.
Adding lanes makes it far more confusing. I consider myself, you know, pretty smart. Not stupid, at least.
But I almost sideswiped someone in this roundabout the other day. Years of driving experience gave me an intuition that the middle lane would not cross over the outer lane. E.x. a car in the inner lane would not pass through the outer lane (except at the very end). So when I saw an oncoming car in the inner lane I thoguht I was safe to enter the outer lane. Not so. The inner lane car was actually lane-changing to the outer lane (at the exact point I was about to enter the roundabout) in order to exit.
Like the Arc de Triomphe roundabout? :)
If it had lane marking there would apparently be 10 tracks around the circle.
What makes it seem crazy is cars entering have right of way.
The reason it works seems to be French attitude. Cars entering do their thing, and cars already going around do their thing (and just have to avoid anyone on their right).
I saw that on either Top Gear or The Grand Tour and was convinced they were just making fun of the French. It's really odd to not have changed it when everyone else learned that lesson already.
The thing that’s bananas is that this is a City of Paris rule. In the rest of France, traffic entering a roundabout must yield. Not inside Paris. Better make sure you know this!
And even more crazy, the Periphérique, the controlled-access ring road around Paris which tends to move at 40-50mph, is a city street and so traffic entering that highway-like “street” also has right-of-way.
The lanes are quite narrow, and the outer curb is deceptive - there’s a 1” edge with a curved curb behind it making it look wider than it actually is. Scraping along that edge will push cars into the center of the road. There will be a lot of minor accidents here due to the road design.
One other second order effect - people are getting used to roundabouts here now, but nearby are ‘traffic circles’ that are roundabouts with stop signs on some entrances. People are now ignoring those stop signs (because it’s a roundabout!). I almost hit 3 cars in 2 intersections as people ignored their stop sign.
* There is a round obstruction in the middle of the intersection like a roundabout.
* The street going north-south through the intersection does not have a stop sign.
* The street going east-west has stop signs on both sides.
* But the north-south street which doesn't have to stop also has speed humps on it to slow drivers down.
On its face, this seems like a totally bananas design. The street that should be efficient by not having to stop has traffic calming speed humps on it anyway, negating the efficiency. The cross streets get none of the efficiency of a roundabout because they have to stop anyway. And the combination of roundabout and stop signs is very confusing to drivers.
It makes no sense... if you assume the intersection is designed entirely for cars.
But it isn't, it's a "neighborhood greenway"[1]. The north-south street is designed to improve bicycle traffic. The speed humps don't slow cyclists down. The roundabout middle and stop signs on the cross streets make it safer for cyclists to cruise through the intersection without stopping.
If you ever bike commute, you quickly learn how lethal a lot of stopping and going is for cycling. The effort and efficiency really only make sense if you can go a fairly steady speed for much of your commute. Accelerating a bike is a lot of work.
Once you factor in bikes, the design of these intersections makes more sense. At least in theory. In practice, though people are consistently confused by "roundabout + stop signs" and I see drivers blow through those stop signs more than I've ever seen any other traffic violation by a large margin. Because of that, cyclists and drivers going north-south still have to be paranoid going into the intersection. Even though they have the right of way, there's about a 25% chance the other driver won't stop anyway.
It was a good idea, and maybe the execution will work out once people get more educated. But right now it's a mess. I walk along that street often and I spend a lot of time gesticulating wildly at drivers when they blow through those stop signs.
[1]: https://www.seattle.gov/transportation/projects-and-programs...
They are more than just a small concrete circle. :D
Agreed, totally. That's what this street used to be before they converted it. I hated driving it because I had to crawl through each intersection because you never knew if someone was going to just blow through it or not. It was even slower than a four-way stop.
Seattle has plenty of traffic circles just laying around that predate the greenway program though.
I almost never see Seattle drivers blow through stop signs though, maybe people in my neighborhood are just more chill? :D
I do wish Google maps was aware of them though.
Do you mean they treat it as if they have right-of-way when entering? Because that's also unusual (but not unheard of) in roundabouts.
I regret to inform you...
[1]https://panethos.wordpress.com/2024/06/14/working-list-peanu...
- have a mute button for the background music.
- there should be a gas pedal and a brake, rather than the car going forward at a constant speed unless I hit the brakes.
- the car should go straight, unless I turn. if I don't do anything near the exit of a roundabout, sometimes the "default" behavior is to exit the roundabout, sometimes it's to turn and continue within the roundabout.
frustration with the last point was enough for me to give up trying to play it. I'm sure the LLM that vibe-coded this thinks the controls make perfect sense, though.
in general:
is this trying to make a point of some kind about the design of the interchange? the "Inspired by online discussions of the Kirkland roundabouts" text sort of hints at that but it's unclear how.
is the point that it's overly complicated? or is the point that it's actually not that complicated, in response to people criticizing it? I can imagine it going either way...but the poor controls mean that it's not really effective at making either point.
different roundabout / intersection types would make this much more interesting. I've driven through the "diverging diamond" interchange of I-5 in Lacey [0] before, and it was a bit confusing the first time but now doesn't seem any more complicated than any other busy highway intersection. or, add a before & after comparing the old Kirkland interchange design to the new roundabout.
0: https://wsdot.wa.gov/travel/traffic-safety-methods/diverging...
Though, in real life, people often don't look at the road markings - possibly even more true in America, where people are perhaps less familiar with the roundabout concept - and general directions of traffic flow is an issue. Perhaps driving this particular roundabout in real life might indeed turn out to be as annoying as this game is to play.
(There are a couple of straightforward-looking ones near me that, in practice, are almost impossible during busy times in specific directions. Even if your car is powerful enough to zip onto the roundabout in a tiny gap without there being a crash, now you have to not crash while making it turn...)
Take this similarly confusing double-roundabout for example https://maps.app.goo.gl/VTSrSWsBGnsYyzKU6
There are accidents here almost every week and when an out of towner comes off the interstate to get some gas at Sam's Club (where I used to work) I had to try and explain to them how to get back onto the interstate...
I might try to clone this project idea, it was fun to play!
They also proposed a peanut style roundabout with a *train track going through it* that thankfully has not been built yet https://media.conwayarkansas.gov/media/documents/project/85/...
Four way stops simply don’t exist.
When well designed, roundabouts are excellent for traffic flow and reducing accidents and severity of accidents.
If I was king for a day I’d replace all four way stops with them.
Unmarked intersections do exist, mostly on bush tracks and backroads, but I don't think I've ever seen the four stop sign arrangement here in Vic. Apparently it's slightly more common in NSW.
Thankfully, I literally sold my house because of it, and my timing was good and I got out before prices dropped.
A taste of what that would be like is when all the power goes out, including the power to the traffic lights. Traffic moves faster! Because drivers cooperate. Traffic also moves faster when a cop is directing traffic.
I think the real reason they were installed was because of a new state law that goes into effect this July where you'll be fined if you're spotted holding a smartphone by a traffic cam. Still, the faster light changes are quite welcome.
Wait, what?! I’m at a loss as to the behavior they’re trying to curb with such a law.
EDIT: OIC, it’s not “using a phone near a traffic cam”, it’s “using a phone while driving (even at a stop light) and a traffic cam captures you doing it”.
Somewhat relevant: https://www.nbcphiladelphia.com/news/local/new-pa-ban-on-cel...
This interchange might have been better off using a diverging diamond interchange layout [1]. While not a roundabout they are "magic" and we should use them more often.
They just look confusing because at some point you are effectively driving on the wrong side of the road, but are extremely efficient. My daily commute includes one that cuts a few minutes off what it once took to negotiate the previous traditional interchange.
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Diverging_diamond_interchange
this one probably is not good for a DDI because it is also supposed to be a bus interchange for a BRT project, and the buses will stop at the roundabout level.
All in all they end up being rather unpleasant to use through no fault of their own.
There should be a law (I'd suggest Dougal's Law) describing how any discussion of road design will inevitably lead to a mention of the Magic Roundabout :D
I'll let myself out.
The linked ones, also called "magic roundabouts", are roundabout rings made out of roundabouts. In particular, you can take them clockwise or anticlockwise - it is a ring of roads connected by mini roundabouts. Even just the road sign gives you a headache!
Having been exposed to the idea for over a decade, I still don't know instinctively how to navigate them.
Most people have no problems with the idea of a road network loop - such as around a block - but that's exactly the same thing from a driving point of view.
When I lived in Nashville, I spent a lot of time near a roundabout, and even after they redid it to be a bit better I still had to avoid it for my own safety. The light-controlled intersection next to it was much less of a problem.
From an advanced driving course I got to do years ago (for free), I learnt that the pedestrian island counts as part of the roundabout, so a pedestrian crossing or on the island should be given way to finish crossing when entering the roundabout [1].
Doesn't always happen in reality.
There is also this idea in Australia that you always give right of way to cars entering on your right (left for US) which is not an actual rule; as in if you are waiting at the line you count as being on the roundabout.
Unfortunately, you will often see cars on the major road blast through a small roundabout with no regard to anyone waiting to enter from the lesser road, making entering the roundabout from that side a stop rather than an equal give way.
[1] Edited for clarity
* Jaywalking makes.. what harder?
* In the UK, roundabouts are marked with areas for pedestrians to cross but they are not crossings? What are they, then?
* You don't have to wait
* But also you can't expect traffic to stop for you
* What do you do if it does not become clear?
Crossing the road without a crossing or light or whatever explicitly telling you that you can do it.
> In the UK, roundabouts are marked with areas for pedestrians to cross but they are not crossings? What are they, then?
They are indented areas where the road (and often the centre barrier just before the roundabout) is marked for pedestrians but traffic is not obligated to stop. You cross the road when it is safe
> What do you do if it does not become clear?
If it was such total gridlock you can just cross in between traffic that is not moving?
Seems like a poorly designed roundabout then. You should just pull into the roundabout, right after the car already in the roundabout passes by. Something is wrong if one direction of traffic can block the flow from other directions.
Yes, that seems like a roundabout design defect. Seems like the radius of the circle is too large, so cars aren't slowing down enough.
I'm American with a roundabout very close to my house. The inner radius is 10 meters with an island in the middle, and single lanes in all directions. I have witnessed it successfully navigated at well over 100 kph.
Also, it's not a speed thing. I've seen this at another roundabout near my house. There's a school dropoff near it, so in the morning traffic backs up through the roundabout onto one of the entrances. The rules are that traffic in the roundabout has the right of way, so nobody lets anyone from one of the side streets in.
At the risk of pointing out the obvious: the issue is that there's another car right there, when traffic is heavy.
A breath of fresh air is how much faster getting off I-405 is now. I used to wait a lot on the traffic lights that were there before, and now it is like a mini slow rollercoaster.
If it were a regular 2-lane traffic circle, it wouldn't be too difficult to navigate.
Personally, I find multiple-lane traffic circles (4+) to be more difficult to navigate, mostly when some people in the center lanes pull a fast right turn across all lanes of traffic. Otherwise, much better than traffic lights at keeping traffic moving or first-come, first-served stop intersections when people don't really stop or sit there waving you through.
If it's meant to be an argument against roundabouts then it's a straw man.
The biggest issue is they are an infrequently used traffic control device in the US. So infrequent, I don't think they even appear in the WA drivers handbook which is kind of shocking.
As a by product, you see the craziest driver behaviour in Seattle on them:
1) No one uses their indicators/turn signals as they approach. This is a major issue because it makes the roundabout incredibly ineffective, as every driver needs to treat it effectively like a 4-way stop because you don't know the intentions of the cars around you. 2) Drivers will enter the roundabout, then stop at another entryway if a car approaches. This makes no sense, as the approaching car would need to yield or stop, so it slows the traffic down again. 3) Drivers will wait at an entrance until all other cars are clear of the roundabout before entering. Again, makes no sense - you wouldn't do that on a cross-road if two cars were both indicating right etc.
Definitely need more driver education on the humble roundabout!
They are definitely in the handbook. Couple different types, with pictures and diagrams, and written instructions.
https://dol.wa.gov/driver-licenses-and-permits/driver-traini...
Roundabout is basically a straight road that loops itself, so there's no need for blinkers when you're on. You indicate when you want to leave, and that's how cars approaching from your exit know it's safe to get on.
Besides that I'm not surprised Americans don't know how to use them; while nowhere else in the world you'll find a 4-way stop...
As another commenter mentioned, roundabouts work just fine even if nobody indicates anything (which they usually don't where I live).
To be fair, I'm not sure there's a good solution. The real problem is the volume of traffic and that it dumps onto two lane roads at the edges of this roundabout. To really fix things you need to give people other exits to use.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeFY9u69tkE
The adjoining roads have a large speed differential. The runoff areas around this project do not appear as if designed with this in mind. I predict a few horrible accidents and some hamfisted redesigns.
The local news has a ground level view of this project:
The problem is that at intersections the normative behavior of American drivers is to queue and wait for your turn. Roundabouts assume a different behavior based on jumping the line.
Thus there is a lot of unpredictability regarding other drivers due to generations of driving patterns developed in diverse regional driving cultures...many of which are distinctly not-urban.
In addition, this roundabout is part of an Interstate Highway interchange. The US Interstate system is at a scale that doesn't occur elsewhere. It is transcontinental.
It has a lot of intersections.
Reconfiguring intersections is expensive and disruptive. Stop signs and traffic lights take less space and are often the simplest thing that might work.
I don't think it's that different from turning right on red, or left without an arrow, or even merging on to the highway from an onramp (maybe that's the most similar, traffic in the others aren't flowing the same direction as you).
American drivers don’t know that a yield doesn’t require a stop and can’t think more than one or two seconds ahead of any possible conflict in traffic.
Onramps with traffic lights are a thing in the US. They operate during rush hour.
That said I have yet to drive through a roundabout that I think improved an intersection in any meaningful way. Half of them work as intended but I find them less pleasant to drive through, the other half are just horribly designed and often have semitrucks go through them when they aren't really large enough for that.
That's the argument I keep hearing, but I'm not sure I buy it. Fewer people might be injured physically but even low speed accidents can cost thousands in repairs if not total your car, so going from a few people being hurt a year to multiple people losing their cars or being forced to pay out thousands every few weeks doesn't seem like a win to me.
"Studies of intersections in the United States converted from traffic signals or stop signs to roundabouts have found reductions in injury crashes of 72%-80% and reductions in all crashes of 35%-47%"
https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/roundabouts#safety-benef...
And yet it still mostly works, and is loads faster than the former lights that were there before, so i suspect it will be a success in most eyes once everyone adapts.
For additional fun, check out the sticker price on this intersection overhaul (which includes much more than the round about).
1. You don't get to see signage that tells you what lane to be in
2. You are forced to take in irrelevant details.
https://www.iihs.org/research-areas/roundabouts#traffic-flow...
Btw your 'classic pattern' of highly unbalanced traffic flows is specifically called out as a non-ideal candidate for a roundabout, maybe the urban planners get cow milk in their lattes after all.
Two way stops are OFTEN a bad idea, because they require two directions of travel to stop for _sometimes_ no particular reason. (And then they often cannot go without an extensive wait).