Comment by 4bpp | Hacker News Reader

Comment by 4bpp | Hacker News Reader

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Maybe I'm slightly projecting my European sensitivities here, but I think there is more going on there than just the emptiness. There is a common theme that the spaces depicted are, on their own, quite unpleasant (barren, made from flimsy materials, probably emitting some amount of toxic fumes); it's just that this unpleasantness is normally masked by their human use and interpretation, which invariably some form of commercialism and hype. (Hence the abundance of hastily erected American mall architecture.)

A historical European town devoid of people does not work as a liminal space picture at all, because it still looks nice; and neither do the postapocalyptic settings that Japan is so fond of (YKK etc.). Eastern European commieblock and UK Brutalist hellscapes are actually quite similar in terms of the feeling they evoke, and have their own fandoms, but are considered their own genre - so I would conclude that "liminal space porn" is spaces only made tolerable by commercialism with the commercialism taken away, and the related "/r/UrbanHell" material is spaces only made tolerable by human habitation with that taken away or suppressed (e.g. if the humans are so bereft of vitality that they can no longer overcome the space's badness).

This is more or less my thoughts as well. Walking around the exterior of Nymphenburg Palace even when empty would not be very emotional at all.

Walking around a modern suburban development devoid of people, houses, pets, etc. would be at least unusual in the feeling. The spaces are intentionally designed to put people and their things within obvious boundaries. With the boundaries still there but lacking the things within them it becomes quite a different experience.

There are layers to that suburban setting and I wonder which ones you imagine.

There actually used to be this "empty suburb" feeling at many times per day when a typical bedroom community had sent its kids to school and parent to work. Particularly when they were not wealthy enough to have paid laborers around doing things during their work day. If anything, they got busier since COVID as people have more varied schedules.

Then there is the new but incomplete development, e.g. with graded lots and some subset of streets and walkways. If work is suspended for some reason, it may be decorated with idled earth movers, piles of building materials, or partial foundations or framing.

Or it might turn into the next type, which is an aborted subdivision build or after a severe wildfire, which is basically a moonscape of graded lots with no buildings nor vegetation.

Then there are the abandoned neighborhoods that were once vibrant. Old, decrepit buildings, and wild vegetation, e.g. around dead industrial towns.

I think that's narrowing it too much. Edward Hopper's "Sunday Morning" evokes the same feeling with me - the feeling of something that just was there, that we passed through without paying much attention to it at the time, but which we now remember.

Maybe you wouldn't have that feeling about a beautiful old European town, but I bet some of the people living there would.

I think classic liminal esthetic would also include empty swimming pools, resorts etc. It doesn't need to be barren or cheap, could be relatively luxurious, but needs to be late Modernist as a base - i.e. mass produced and devoid of conscious symbolism or ornamentation.

I get and agree with what youre saying.

Its the combination of capitalism and lowest bidder architecture that is alienating to humans. And if humans are present, makes the space tolerable.

Remove the humans, and the space is off-putting, eerie and has a sense of dread.

And yeah, brutalism (usage of concrete as primary architecture) is also seen in the USA. And frankly, most of the buildings feel like prisons, and not where you want to go. Look no further than Indiana Univerity Hermann Wells library. https://maps.app.goo.gl/6FDvKR9sHSk3z8v56

Brutalist buildings feel directly hostile to humans, and not a vague sense of dread.

However I had the pleasure of seeing a brutalist hotel in Iceland (Fosshotel Vatnajokull) which combines concrete with wood. It felt sturdy and powerful, but also soft and welcoming. https://maps.app.goo.gl/wnXEawh2wptmQ3Rd7

But yeah, I do think youre on the right track. It really is related to capitalism and making horrible spaces (malls, etc). And without people, they are alienating and mild dread-inducing.

It's unfashionable but I still love brutalist architecture. It feels stable, like it would still be there whether it had people in it or not. Like living in a cave.

Maybe it feels that way, but that's an illusion, then. The things are often haunted by poor decisions taken when they were built and take a ton of maintenance. Concrete isn't as maintenance-free as it seems!

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