Dav2d
jbkempf.com
jbkempf.com
- https://web.archive.org/web/20260531130034/https://jbkempf.c...
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The host here has a limit of 160000 files served each day. That is extremely low. If the site has an icon, css, a js file and a few images it's 10 files each visit. That's will limit it to 16k visits/day. If there are more files loaded it might just handle a few thousand visits, and they have received more than that from HN now.
AV1 software decoding is already very intensive so AV2 decoding benchmarks are the next thing that would be really interesting (or mortifying) to see.
Yes, this is going to be fun to watch.
Netflix uses AV1: https://netflixtechblog.com/av1-now-powering-30-of-netflix-s...
YouTube uses AV1. It's tough to be more mainstream than that.
Right click on a YouTube video and select Stats for Nerds. If your system is capable of it, chances are it will be playing back in AV1.
Most of the YouTube videos I watch these days are AV1 encodes. Sometimes it's in VP9 and occasionally it's H.264.
What's missing mostly: live streams which are h264.
Currently, and I say currently, dav1d is so fast, no worries on that side.
Even on 1080p videos running on AV1 on 1x, the TV system bogs down and any kind of interaction has a variable 1-3s lag. On some TVs if you do 1.25x the TV automatically "downgrades" the resolution to 480p to avoid dropping frames.
I wish there was an option to still use VP9 / H.264 on those systems (even limited to 1080p).
Hope we get a similar option with future lineups that support AV2, especially given how popular video creation and streaming are now.
The point of encoding is to reduce downstream bandwidth for the viewer, and upstream bandwidth for the distribution network.
The content creator only needs to upload it once.
Do you not have 98% high speed 5G coverage?
You also will need _some_ sort of encoding locally before uploading, even if it's minimal, which could lead to issues when encoded again (although there are codecs available to minimize this).
Leaner delivery is not just ethical, but it also makes better business sense.
Compressing to AV1/h264/265 etc is really only done for the final version, but that doesn't mean that videos are stored in RAW format during editing, where it is very common to store frames locally in Apple ProRes, Avid DNxHD, or some other compressed format that's targeted towards professional editing.
Contrary to AV1 or whatever similar format which offer compression ratios of 1000x and more, these formats have a compression ratio of around 10x. They are very simple, and the quality loss is low enough that it doesn't matter. They also tend to store images with 30 bits per pixel instead of the 24 bpp that's normally used for streaming.
ProRes and the like are used for proxies or quick and dirty productions that are mostly shooting their look in camera because of a fast turnaround time. This is usually event work on a budget or something for social media.
for other cases, I can just wait more for my cpu/gpu/cloud to do the job
An uncompressed 1080p, 60fps video with 24-bit color depth would need around 3Gbps to be streamed. And even if you don't need to stream it, that would still consume a sizeable portion of the write throughput of the fastest SSDs currently available; if you go up to 4K, you'd actually exceed that by a lot (not to mention, 1tb of storage would last for about 10 minutes of video).
It is not disingenuous given the context. Gp was responding to ggp's hypothetical:
>> Is there a compelling reason encoding needs to be done locally?
I've actually done a version this for some multi-system live AV at an event before. Between the main software mixer workstations at various fields in the event it was a dumb but simple encoding they could do in hardware at a high bitrate and then in the machine compositing for the livestream out it did AV1 software encoding to upload to the streaming site to minimize bandwidth requirement from the venue and maximize quality on the streaming site. We've since upgraded to hardware with AV1 encode though.
The practical downside is AV2 is only providing a 30% advantage over AV1. For the streaming providers their bandwidth costs are pretty cheap compared to revamping the transcoding infrastructure, so it'd probably only make financial sense once the remove end can do the most complex and quality encoding used and the rest are all simpler.
I think you might be misunderestimating how incredible the dav1d AV1 decoder is. Not only does it require less total time than the reference decoder to decode the same video, but it can spread that out over far more threads. I was unable to watch 4k 60fps av1 video on my media center PC (it's from 2019, so predates hardware av1 decoding, and, well, the CPU was a little long in the tooth) until I switched to dav1d. With dav1d I am now able to watch 4k 60fps av1 using software decoding, and my machine uses 10% CPU while doing so. Really amazing piece of software.
With any luck, the dav2d 5x claim will hold true, and 10% CPU usage will scale to 50% CPU usage, meaning I'm still able to watch 4k 60fps video on my media center without a hardware upgrade. (that machine doesn't have hyperthreading, so 50% cpu is actually 50%, not 100% in a fancy suit)
Reading the MPEG1 specs back in the 90s as a child opened my eyes to how to define complex systems. For a media coding standard, they spent most of their time saying how to interpret encoded bytes, which I realized is genius. Be descriptive about decoding and you don't have to be prescriptive about encoding. Encoding is where you can apply all the creativity, but you need to provide a way to have a shared understanding of the encoded bytes.
https://gist.github.com/MartinEesmaa/2f4b261cb90a47e9c41ba11...
Devices with AV1 hardware decoding - rare as they are - won't be obsoleted for a long time.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XqZsoesa55w
That extra 25% becomes worth it.
Nothing will become obsolete. AV1 will stick around for a long time. And YouTube still does H.264 encodes to support old devices.
Studios still release new dvds with mpeg2 video. Online videos tend to be available in many codecs. Video conferencing tends to negotiate to best available or has settled on ancient codecs and won't change quickly.
Each time these standards were put into ink, they were years from being practical.
The AV2 Video Standard Has Released (Final v1.0 Specification)
... improvements around 25% compared to AV1
AV2 decoding is roughly five times more complex than AV1 decoding
AV2 saves 25% bandwidth at the cost of 5x more decoding complexity.
For any specific bitrate and quality target, there's a good chance it'll be faster.
HN hug of death
Shrek 1 at 8.34MB including audio.. insane
[1] https://archive.org/details/Shrek-Video-GBA [2] https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CyOfPZQl4MI
I noticed that too. When I tried extreme screen recording compression with AV1 audio became a noticeable part of the bottleneck.
>AV2 decoding is roughly five times more complex than AV1 decoding.
For the past 8 to 10 years VideoLan are the only guys on the AOM camp who doesn't care about optics and willing to spell out the truth.
>because we did not believe hardware decoding would become available quickly enough, or on enough devices.
The we was basically VideoLAN only. All other members ( at least on the AOM ) thought hardware decoder would be ready by 2019. And we all know how that works out.
But now with AV2 and Dav2d, that completely breaks. Are we eventually going to get AV3/Dav3d and AV4/Dav4d, which will read like Ave/Daved and Ava/Davad? Seems a bit awkward. Was the idea from the start to have the 1 be the version number, and have it specifically be part of the name?
2av2furious?
Just “AV”
Next, AV Series 1 and 2 (released simultaneously)
Later, AV Edition but it costs $10,000
Young AV?
Tangent but I cannot wait for h269 (or h267 for the younger gen)
I guess 5 years ago (around the time when Intel stopped making SSE-only chips) is technically "older", but I wouldn't prioritize avx2 when devices intended for consuming media definitely experience much less pressure to upgrade than workstations…
This is an odd signoff. Are people having a go at dav2d?
I assume there will be an SVT-AV2 too which will semi-automatically gain from the SVT foundation for working with lots of cores but will still need specific work to support and then tune AV2 encoding.
The answer is probably the same as for why not AV2 everything; a lot of hardware couldn't support it today. But in 10 years?
It seems we're running up against fundamental limits of human-engineered video codecs at this point. There might be a lesson in there.
And it's not really hardware hitting limits, it's specifically software decoding on somewhat weaker machines.
Adding custom hardware like tensor cores to the stack would serves a different use case.
What I'm saying is the performance problem is a "code smell". The algorithms are getting so complicated that perhaps we are approaching fundamental limits of heuristiccs; we might get better + faster results ditching "smart" algorithms and just learning the codec in a much higher dimensional space.
Again specialized hardware, but a different approach to it.
This could work / works for video too, give it lower resolution / quality images and AI upscale. Its predecessor would calculate intermediate frames for example.
Rust does not bring more performance. Just more safety.
Forgive the ignorance, I have worked entirely in the abstracted layers of the stack, and mostly web.
Whether that counts is up to you. I suppose it's still "sandboxed" in that it runs in a less privileged context than the kernel.
Though more safety can in some cases bring a bit more performance. For instance, with Rust you can often avoid "defensive copies" of objects.
C makes it easy to be fast but hard to be safe. Rust makes it easy to be safe but hard to be fast.
Also note that video codecs tend to wrap C or Rust around handcrafted ASM. Performance is king.
It does if you ask them, or at least research the topic at hand.
If so, FFmpeg's stance is very understandable in my opinion.
Media decoders are one of the highest risk programs since they deal with untrusted user input and are incredibly complex. So just because a large project like ffmpeg uses C, doesn't mean there isn't very good reason to consider a language like Rust for saftey reasons.
The disadvantage in speed when using Rust is pretty obvious.[1] When it comes to video encoding and decoding, I and FFmpeg care a lot more about speed than memory safety. So those reasons have been considered and largely discounted.
[1] https://xcancel.com/FFmpeg/status/1924137645988356437 (to be fair, this is only transpiled from C, so it could probably be optimised further, but that apparently needed a 20k USD bounty to then not even happen (as far as I can tell))
And as soon as you walk into concurrency territory for a complex codec like this then it seems almost impossible for humans to do correctly while retaining safety.
Rust can only prove a limited subset of correct programs to be safe, when you're doing bare metal stuff you've often not in that subsystem and drop down to unsafe. I'm guessing there's always stuff that's not perf critical and can live in Rust sandbox - so not saying no wins - but it doesn't sound like Rust is a no-brainer.
I still think no one should in 2026 be writing a nontrivial codec or anything parsing untrusted data, in C. There's just no excuse.
The gains are re-use of skill and code. And I hope that's the reason this is continuing with C, this is basically a v2 of an existing project, not a greenfield codec, even if it's much larger.
The way they weave these instructions can be very hard to express with a high level language.
Further, there's a ton of work with arrays and importantly parts of arrays. They can, for example, need to extract every other element up to 1/2 the array. Unfortunately, rust has runtime array bounds checks which make writing that sort of code slower. The compiler can elade those checks, but usually only in simple cases.
The authors would be writing a bunch of unsafe rust to get the performance they want and rust makes that more painful on purpose.
I like rust, but C/ASM really is the right choice here. This is one of the few cases where rust's safety is a major detriment.
rav1d is not a full rewrite of dav1d to rust. So it really doesn't show that. It's currently C + rust + asm.
I don't think we can say anything about what this does or does not prove about the performance of safe code.
> Performance should not be priority #1. Security should be.
Entirely depends on the application. The reason rust has `unsafe` is because there's some situations where performance needs to preempt potential security problems.
Why shouldn't safety be the default? If you really want to, it wouldn't be too hard to maintain a patch on top of rustc to drop the bounds checks if you want to compile object files without them.
Software decoding has a safety culture problem, and we need to talk about it.
Because safe code isn't fast enough to decode live video.
> If you really want to, it wouldn't be too hard to maintain a patch on top of rustc to drop the bounds checks if you want to compile object files without them.
Yeah, but then you are undermining safety in a critical way that does lead to security vulnerabilities (buffer overflow). And you are also now maintaining and requiring other devs for a project to use a custom version of rustc. That's certainly part of the reason that's simply not happened.
But another major part of it is that encoders end up with a lot of custom ASM regardless. That custom ASM is going to be where vulnerabilities end up. You don't really escape that by using rust.
If you are already abandoning where you critically need safety the most for performance, then why pick a language that additionally penalizes you for using unsafe constructs?
> Software decoding has a safety culture problem, and we need to talk about it.
Compilers and languages have an optimization problem that we need to talk about. SIMD optimizations remain a very hard thing for compilers to get right. We should talk about what it'd take to make compilers better and the reasons for why codec devs need to drop down to asm instead of using a high level compiler.
There might not be a solution to this problem, there are reasons for it.
I strongly doubt that.
And if any implementation of AV2 can be "fast enough", then there should be no question at all that we can write "fast enough" safe decoders for every other codec. Absolutely no way safe code is inherently that much slower.
You can doubt all you like. Ultimately, there's a reason why dav1d includes hand coded SIMD for common platforms.
It's simply impossible to get a compiler to emit something like this [1].
[1] https://github.com/videolan/dav1d/blob/master/src/x86/ipred_...
More importantly, if you can show that your assembly code isn't altering pointers it shouldn't alter, and isn't going out of bounds on its reads, you're most of the way to having assembly in your verified safe code. And rough bounds checking with padding can as cheap as a bitmask.
1. I didn't make that claim.
2. A negative assertion doesn't require evidence. If I say "this is impossible to do" the burden to disprove me is showing it's actually possible. You can't prove a negative. For example, if I say "the tooth fairy doesn't exist" I don't need to provide evidence of the tooth fairy's non-existence. If you disagree, you need to provide evidence to the contrary.
Then you didn't read my previous comment correctly. AV2 must be "fast enough" if the designers aren't crazy. And AV2 is 5x slower than AV1. Therefore if compiled code is within a factor of five of hand-written assembly, it's "fast enough" for AV1, and h.264, and probably h.265 too.
You were disagreeing with my claim that other codecs could be "fast enough" with a safe compiler, right? If you weren't disagreeing, I don't know why you challenged me to show you some particular kind of code.
> 2. A negative assertion doesn't require evidence. If I say "this is impossible to do" the burden to disprove me is showing it's actually possible. You can't prove a negative. For example, if I say "the tooth fairy doesn't exist" I don't need to provide evidence of the tooth fairy's non-existence. If you disagree, you need to provide evidence to the contrary.
You're saying it's "simply impossible" for a compiler to optimize instructions to a certain level. But anything one person can code, another person can teach a compiler to do in similar situations. I don't need to show you an example, I just need to point you at the Church-Turing thesis and related documents.
Bounds checking as a source of slowdown is overrated in a niche where you're working on fixed size blocks. It feels like the C developers are getting the parts outside the ASM kernels wrong.
Hand written assembly. It's quite easy to accidentally start reading or manipulating a block of memory you didn't intend to when doing complex SIMD transformations.
> Bounds checking as a source of slowdown is overrated in a niche where you're working on fixed size blocks.
I think you don't really understand how codecs work. It is not uncommon for a transformation like `a = b[c[i] * 3 + offset];`. There's no way for a compiler to omit the bounds check because it can't prove the contents of `c` aren't going to exceed the bounds of `b`.
This isn't a "crappy C developer" problem. This is a "There isn't a language that does a great job at capturing high level SIMD expressions" problem.
For a web browser, or a server in a bank, sure. For anything else, questionable.
> adding a sandbox around a memory-unsafe codec is going to be way more expensive
In modern world, overhead of strong sandboxes is surprisingly small. A nuclear but most reliable option is hardware assisted VM. On modern computers with SLAT and virtualized IO the overhead for most use cases is negligible. If you want something lighter weight, can use a multi-user nature of all modern OS kernels and isolate into a separate process with restricted permissions. Sandboxing overhead is approximately zero.
it's not much slower than the original C/ASM implementation (last i checked ~5%?) but that matters here
I am not sure if it is that much safer than the C version when raw assembly is still required.
https://code.videolan.org/videolan/dav2d/-/blob/main/src/dat...
There is a project to write an AV1 decoder in Rust: Rav1d (really stretching the name here).
https://github.com/memorysafety/rav1d
They got within 5% of the performance of dav1d and held a contest to close the gap but I think I read somewhere that this wasn't achieved.
https://www.memorysafety.org/blog/rav1d-perf-bounty/
They claimed
> This is enough of a difference to be a problem for potential adopters, and, frankly, it just bothers us.
But in my opinion nobody actually cares about 5% in absolute terms. It's likely just Rust naysayers using that as an excuse.
I think the likely reason for dav2d using C is that they can reuse lots of code and infrastructure from dav1d. But I agree it would be much better if they worked on Rav2d instead (these names!). You can hardly complain about a 5% overhead if you're opting in to 5x more decoding complexity.
How can you claim nobody cares about 5%? A 5% performance increase is significant. And video decoding is not always for playback, where 5% may not matter as much.
Difficult to tell - that's the point!
If you can stand Lex Friedman for a bit, the VLC authors talk about why you use ASM for a video decoder instead of pure C or rust.
*Da5id
It's a semi-common last name.
Like we had weird examples like C compilers and Bun. This is a much more interesting example because its highly nontrivial.
AV1 exists, Dav1d exists. Lets see AI take the AV2 spec and Dav1d code and try to make a working high performance AV2 decoder.
That sounds like one of these high-risk, high-reward things that are great for people / projects / companies who have nothing to lose, but is not a great baseline strategy for an established market player. AV2 is here with support from aomedia and its members. AV2 will be used, and we need a production-grade decoder regardless of where AI is at, so it makes much more conservative business sense to use established approaches (language: c/asm, devteam: ffmpeg/dav1d) as a starting point. While that's happening, we can dabble in AI and other risky stuff and see if it helps. If so, great, and if not, nothing lost.
I didn't mean that the Dav1d people should yolo vibe code Dav2d. My point was this this is a very interesting possible experiment since there is no existing Dav2d contamination in the training data.