London's Free Roof Terraces | Hacker News Reader

London's Free Roof Terraces

diamondgeezer.blogspot.com

332 pointszeristor162 comments

> more likely to get planning permission if their new skyscraper included a free public roof terrace

If that's the deal, it's crazy that some of those places are getting away with then discouraging the public from actually going there. Book your visit in advance! Present ID! Photography forbidden! This grumpy security guard will be hovering nearby <3

It's like Nathan For You S03E01 where a store advertises a $1 TV, then tells the drawn in would-be customers to please respect the black tie dress code, crawl through a tiny door, and squeeze past the alligator.

This is the country where organised marches must have police approval and follow an approved route (and most acute in London). Hardly a surprise!

London's vibe is: 'privately owned, and you're lucky to be here'

Edit: I'm British btw (and currently sat in a pub in London) in case people downvote me thinking I'm a yank lol. There are many people who dislike London and the UK who aren't yanks

Its not as if things are any better in the country that boasts the most about its freedoms regarding access to supposedly public spaces: https://www.instagram.com/780_lord_of_bench

How many protestors did the U.K. police kill in the last few years, compared to, say, a very free country… like the U.S?

edit: responding to your edit, of course many British people hate London and for many valid reasons, but your reasoning is very American. Very few British people share that American view of freedom and would describe London as “privately owned”.

> but your reasoning is very American.

For god's sake how ridiculous. Give over

What's your basis for commenting on us Brits? You can't even spell UK correctly (we don't use full stops. That's an Americanism / hypercorrection). You spell with a z, so not a Brit

I am no less British than you. I was born in England, raised in England, educated in England, voted in England, my parents were born in England, my grandparents were born in England, my great grandparents were born in England… so on and so forth. I am very sorry that my choice to use American spelling on an American website offends you.

The irony is that the beliefs you’re espousing are an infection caused by U.S. cultural dominance of politics on the Internet. Anti-woke right wing people are heavily influenced by American political attitudes. Do you also believe in Birmingham’s no-go zones?

British people are miserable and cynical and hate everything about our godforsaken country but London being “privately owned” is not one of those things. Civilized protest is not one of those things.

How many protestors did they arrest?

and the city of London is literally a private corporation.

The City of London is a novel anachronism making up a square mile that nobody British would ever refer to as “London” nor do they complain about it being “private”.

No, it isn't. It is called 'City of London Corporation' in the sense of being a municipal corporation, but effectively it's just a local authority... except that businesses still get a vote along with citizens.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Municipal_corporation

In most countries in Europe organized marches and protests must be run by authorities. It's pretty normal here.

Protesting is a legal right but the authorities do have the right to restrict it for public order reasons. For example they often will insist on separate routes to keep conflicting groups apart. It makes sense too.

Even within London people dislike each other!

Saw many non-Arsenal fans cheering for PSG yesterday.

There are thousands of protests per year in central London. The larger ones (tens of thousands of people) are going to be disrupting public transport routes than people rely on. There's an approved route so that disruption can be managed. Nothing to do with being 'privately owned'. It also doesn't help that for a large number of people 'protesting' means travelling into London, getting drunk, and fighting.

Disagree on that vibe. The museums are usually free in London, for example. Haven't seen that in many other cities.

> Haven't seen that in many other cities.

Really? In my limited experience in Europe I've often seen attendance to museums are free. When we were in Ireland and Scotland, most museum/galleries were free with suggested donations. In contrast, museums in Italy had fees for attendance.

I know here in Spain, most attractions run by Museos Estatales are free on Saturday PM and Sundays, but some are also free every day (e.g. Museum of Fine Arts here in València).

Granted, that's a very limited subset of European countries/cities, I'd be interested in the pricing structure of other European countries/cities because we are definitely planning to travel in Europe more often now that we live here.

As a sidebar, I can't recommend The Chester Beatty museum enough - https://www.chesterbeatty.ie

> This is the country where organised marches must have police approval and follow an approved route

You have to notify the police not get approval. They can "impose conditions and restrictions" for safety or to limit the rights of others to travel freely, after which they'll also be somewhat liable to protect you from counter-protesters, or lunatics trying to drive their car at you.

Just about every country requires some kind of advance notice if its not just a few people walking along the pavement/sidewalk and your going to obstruct traffic or block others movement

https://groups.friendsoftheearth.uk/resources/your-rights-an...

I know that you think you just mitigated the extreme character of what he said? But you exacerbated it.

Exactly my thoughts lol

You have a right to _peaceful_ assembly, and others have rights that larger marches impinge on. Police are charged with maintaining public order; which includes balancing rights.

So, how would you manage it?

NB. It's article 11 of the European Convention on Human Rights[1] which gives us "the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and to freedom of association with others, including the right to form and to join trade unions for the protection of his interests."

Reform's manifesto includes[2]: "Stop the Boats with our 4 Point Plan. Leave the European Convention on Human Rights."

[1] https://fra.europa.eu/en/law-reference/european-convention-h...

[2] Page 5 of https://reformuk.org.uk/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/Reform_UK...

You must book in advance because they’re incredibly popular, huge queues, long waits, and capacity limits. The Sky Garden (Fenchurch Building) is huge, beautiful and absolutely packed with people. Many people consider it a London must visit.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/20_Fenchurch_Street#Sky_garden

Ok that one looks legit :)

I was thinking more about his experience with e.g. the last one on the page, Roof Garden at The Post Building:

> I still don't understand why it's here nor why it's open daily, nor why they insist on Photo ID "and a full written name" before they'll let you up. However I didn't get the chance to test this out yesterday because when I arrived the roof terrace was "closed due to essential maintenance work", inconveniencing probably nobody but myself.

Sky Garden is really the only one that does not make it hard. No need to book - just pop up there for with your sandwiches for lunch, and I think it's the best roof garden in city.

You might need to queue for a little while on a weekend or at prime lunchtime.

The others you need to book weeks ahead, so agree with the previous post that they do make it hard. Sky Garden is not one of them.

The odd thing is you certainly used to have book

Why does it have a booking system that says "no tickets available"? Is it unticketed now? Maybe I'll go there next time I'm in London and try.

Capacity may indeed be a reason for requiring advance bookings.

But it doesn't explain the ridiculous security (scanning gates, had to take off my hat and belt, insulin pump was inspected), the prohibition of "professional" photography equipment, prohibition of own food and drinks (again, diabetes, I want to carry some lemonade and a bar for emergency), etc etc.

Is it to counter terrorism? To boost consuming at the establishments? Or is it a lame excuse thats in reality just a higher bar to entry?

>Is it to counter terrorism? To boost consuming at the establishments? Or is it a lame excuse thats in reality just a higher bar to entry?

Incentives align among all three.

Have you visited The View from The Shard? A very expensive visit, with exactly the same security checks as Sky Garden. Security in tall buildings is high (even if that security is mostly theatre).

"Certain items cannot be brought into The View from The Shard including large bags and backpacks, over the size of 22 x 15 x 8 inches (55 x 38 x 20 cm) or other large equipment."

"We ask guests to walk through metal detectors, which use a low-frequency electromagnetic field to look for metal items."

https://www.theviewfromtheshard.com/frequently-asked-questio...

If you graph obesity and excess security, especially these "metal detectors", there is correlation, thus we should all sue.

This is also true for visitors to the offices located in the shard, it's very annoying to unload a overnight bag when trying to visit an office. I always wondered what the purpose was as regular employees skip the security queue

The Shard has a hotel (Shangri La) with a separate entrance, and no security to get up to the 52nd floor Gong bar (as well as several other restaurants and bar from 30th floor and up)

Next door you need to go through a scanner to get up to the restaurants on the 31st and 32nd floor of the Shard.

Security in these buildings is very arbitrary. I can get that some of the more high profile places feel more of a need for security, and assume that anyone up to no good will perhaps not be the brightest of the bunch and/or will go for more symbolic targets, but still.

Right, the security is all theatre. My comparison is specifically to show that the security at Sky Garden (free) is not implemented to discourage free visitors when The View from The Shard charges lots of money and wants as many visitors as possible and has the same security.

I agree with that. Which tall buildings in London has security or not is really haphazard and absolutely correlates very little with fees.

> Is it to counter terrorism?

They’re worried that if there was an incident they might get sued for having inadequate security.

I’ve spent a lot of time going to places with security like this (airports, museums etc) and getting a belt with plastic buckles (you can get them at outdoor clothing stores) saves a lot of hassle.

Frankly, I take a perverse delight in going backwards and forwards, slowly taking off my belt, keys, watch, small change and finally, steel toe boots.

> the prohibition of "professional" photography equipment

You want endless influencer photoshoots with professional lighting setups and whatnot?

I mean it's open to the public, or it's not… And if the owner get a say on who can enter and who cannot, then it's not.

I have to agree with rjjejriridd on this one, despite their inappropriate tone.

Everyone knows "open to public" does not mean that you can operate a lemonade stand or conduct a professional photoshoot.

if that's what people want to do in public, sure.

This has been the standard for most/all major tourist attractions for years now.

It's a mix of counter terrorism and of keeping the wrong crowd out.

Lived in london for over a decade, never been and I also don't think I know anyone else who's been.

To be fair it's not just that, you won't find many actual londoners in central full stop unless they're going to work

I wouldn’t say that’s an accurate generalisation.

I’ll often meet and hang out with friends in central London.

> Lived in london for over a decade

> actual londoners

So which is it? Lots of expats in London. They aren’t tourist but they aren’t born-and-bred londoners, are they?

I'm not a proper Londoner but I am English, I stand by my comment though - people who actually grew up in London would be even less likely to be found in central London on a Saturday

I was born in the city I live in and so were my kids. They’ve never visited the #1 tourist attraction, and I only did when I was a kid.

My experience living in the UK was that we’d go off as a family to visit Arundel Castle or one of the hundred other amazing things nearby, and the Brits I worked with would say “oh yeah, I went there on a school trip…” or “oh I’ve heard it’s nice.”

Denizens of a place don’t always appreciate what their location offers. That doesn’t make them cool or better than tourists.

That said, I agree that central London is not somewhere I desperately want to go every day. But there’s a lot of great stuff there.

Yeah true, that's fair enough. And you're right there is good stuff in central especially if you're into cultural stuff (theatre, art galleries etc.) - that stuff is all in central and I absolutely take it for granted, there's only a few cities that can match London for that.

I think I'm just jaded from trying to wade through waddling masses of tourists whenever I make the mistake of going anywhere remotely central on a Saturday or Sunday, but I get why if you're a tourist that stuff probably seems cool

I mean they also seem to charge it? (According to the blogpost) then how is it free to the public?

Last time I was in London for a day, I simply reserved a table at one of the restaurants at Sky Garden and got in without any queues. Maybe I booked it on the previous evening, but not much earlier than that.

In the article, all the pictures are empty. Not a single person to be seen in any of the pictures.

The problem is worse outside London, hotels in conservation areas that get planning for health clubs on the basis that locals can buy memberships too, then quietly withdrawn. A car park that should be open for public paid parking becomes private.

It's a fantastic idea, but enforcement sucks on intangible things like this. In a few years time I'm sure it will be 'closed for maintenance' then never reopen to the public or a nice restaurant will go up there and suddenly you'll need a restaurant booking to use the lift.

They become locations to film movies and tv shows. Conveniant views of london without need to close off a "public" area.

Same with the "affordable housing" criteria of new build housing developments. They'll accidentally forget to build the affordable part then get a slap on the wrist afterwards, or build much fewer than were in the plans, or build whatever they want then apply to regularisation afterwards.

Apart from the "maintenance" thing, how are these "untangible"? Needing a restaurant reservation or whatever is not free.

This shouldn't be hard to enforce.

Perhaps "non-physical" would have been a better term to use. The problem is that these obligations are often secured through planning conditions or AT BEST Section 106 agreements. While planning departments are well equipped to enforce whether a building is the correct height or has a window in the wrong place, they are generally much less effective at monitoring and enforcing operational obligations years later. Ensuring that a gym membership scheme remains available, or that a publicly accessible facility continues to operate as promised, is realistically not going to get policed 10 or 15 years after a building has been completed.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=hfW2q4PW_C8

This is basically a lose-lose situation: extra bureaucracy for development projects that actually benefits the local residents (planning applications can get to thousands of pages long, and the whole process takes a really long time [0]), and local residents don't actually get the benefits intended by policies like this. The only people this benefits are those who have a lot of money to throw at things like this.

[0]: https://www.thetimes.com/uk/london/article/shoreditch-works-...

The government benefits by not having to deal with penny pinching developers who can't just make whatever concessions strike their fancy.

Basically their jobs are easier at the expense of the people.

If you think about the potential risks, it is hard to come up with a different model.

The roof has a maximum capacity, not just physically, but for safe evacuation in case of a sudden problem. Hence the limits on attendance.

You'd like to prevent some idiotic or predatory behavior - no one should be able to throw things down onto the street, take over half of the available space for their influencer recordings or unpack a rope and start an inpromptu tightrope walking performance. Roofs often host telecommunication equipment which is expensive and has some strategic value, you'd like to prevent someone from damaging it or at least have a clear identity of a person that did just that.

It is also a place with very limited escape routes, so any panic may translate into crushed people. E.g. no guns, even empty ones, no explosives, nothing that is easily flammable.

Even if there's no door charge, you know that this is part of an ongoing effort to eliminate any place where the "wrong people" might congregate. Eliminating third spaces for youth and poor/homeless people. It's like putting a bar across the middle of a bench so people can't lie down - it's meant to punish poor people and it also makes things worse for everyone else, but our society finds seeing poor people to be the least comfortable thing possible.

This was pretty much my thought as well. If this was done in the US they'd somehow structure access so that it was impossible to actually go there and enjoy the place. The city council would laud it as an accomplishment expanding access to public spaces to all citizens

sf has POPOs and you're sort of right - they were pretty easy to access 10 years ago, but the pandemic gave them enough cover to mostly shut these down or heavily discourage access - though plenty remain open : https://sfpopos.com/

Kendall Square, Cambridge, USA (MIT neighborhood) has something like this, but it's not good.

The space was originally a beloved "public roof garden" which I believe was done as a real estate developer concession to the city. The landscaping itself was whatever, but it was a nice escape from the industrial university campus neighborhood. Get away from your university or industry lab, at any time of day or night, and go up above the commotion, to more sunlight or a view of the stars, with a friend.

Then Google wanted to expand their office space. IIUC, there was a very strange city committee approval, without a quorum, by a single person, who stepped down afterwards.

Much of the public roof garden space was taken. And what remains was remodeled into a nano-Googleplex style grounds party deck, outside their windows. And surveillance cameras, and security guards who often make their presence known.

But it's still technically open to the public. (Challenge: From Broadway, try to spot the signage for it, in a great moment of visual design low-contrast white-on-light-pink signage, amidst larger bold high-contrast color decorations. Even if I tell you it's in a recessed corner beside a parking garage, and you have the benefit of StreetView rather than walking along the sidewalk, and I even tell you what color to look for, you'll have trouble. Under normal conditions, you'd have no idea the public access concession was even there, which presumably was the task given to the designer who must hate that this is what their career has come to.)

And when it's not locked, you can go up there, and get a lookout view of some of the city, while being under the evil eye yourself, and constantly feel like you should leave, which you soon do.

in fairness there's a big green sign, but yeah, enraging. https://maps.app.goo.gl/f2QdWzgY35ci827P8

Good catch. I've walked past that many times, including when actively looking for the entrance, and never saw that sign.

Maybe because it's about 4 stories up, almost straight up from the sidewalk, and at a bit of an angle if you're not coming from the bridge, and above something that says it's just advertising the parking garage to cars. Oh, and looks like blocked from sidewalk by trees, if you're coming from the neighborhood rather than the bridge. So maybe visible to passing cars, but not to the generally car-free people in the neighborhood.

(The first couple times of actively looking for the entrance, I walked past it, before doubling back, and finding the white-on-light-pink signage at street level.)

There is a similar trap in walking the Thames path through London. Some is privately owned and you are made to not feel welcome, odd rules, buttons to press etc. Guardian has a 2015 piece https://www.theguardian.com/cities/2015/feb/24/private-londo...

LOL!

>City Hall sits entirely on a private estate owned by a Kuwaiti investment company. Protesters are not allowed to gather without corporate permission.

This hasn’t been the case since 2022: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/City_Hall,_London_(Newham)

"This" ?

Which this?

They apparently moved the location, but protesting at the new location is still heavily restricted [0] with a dystopian narrative.

> In order to achieve the balance between the rights of those holding a rally and the rights and freedoms of others to go about their business we have put together this guidance and simple application process.

[0] https://www.london.gov.uk/who-we-are/city-halls-buildings-an...

Every single thing in the text you (inaccurately) quoted.

City Hall is no longer on a private estate, no Kuwaiti investment company is involved, and the application process involves no "corporate permission" - you submit a form to the city government, and it sounds like the point is to make sure each rally is allocated a separate area, and they don't deny permission outright.

Please don't be unreasonable.

> Every single thing in the text you (inaccurately) quoted.

Your first sentence makes no sense. It's quoted directly from the Guardian article, not from me.

> it sounds like the point is to make sure each rally is allocated a separate area, and they don't deny permission outright.

FWIW, look at the next article I linked. You're really understating the restrictions for a public, outdoor venue. This is on brand with restrictive public use.

- No noise directed outwards

- no noise after 6PM

- confined to two lawns (that can't fit more than 3k people)

- no sound speakers

- no overnight rallies even if quiet

- leave no trash

- no food for others

- you're strongly advised to fill out a notification form if your group is larger than a dozen people

No, there was a bunch in the middle that you removed.

Most of those restrictions sound pretty standard and reasonable! No amplification is the only one that I’d be upset about as an organizer.

> No, there was a bunch in the middle that you removed.

I didn't remove anything.

It seems you're reading and responding to different discussions.

The article says:

> London’s seat of democratic governance now sits entirely on a private estate owned by a Kuwaiti investment outfit. John Biggs, the London Assembly member, tells me he has been prevented from doing television interviews outside the building by private security guards who insist he needs a special permit; protesters are not allowed to gather without corporate permission. “I think that as active citizens we’ve got a reasonable responsibility to test and push at these public/private borders,” he tells me. “It’s clear we’ve got the balance wrong at the moment.”

You “quoted”:

> City Hall sits entirely on a private estate owned by a Kuwaiti investment company. Protesters are not allowed to gather without corporate permission.

That’s a summary! But not a quote.

> You “quoted”...That’s a summary! But not a quote.

Look again! [0] It's a tagline for a photo that you overlooked. Please take a break and go outside.

[0] https://i.postimg.cc/XvW4pN8Q/image.png

I had a similar experience recently on the other side of the river, though less extreme I think. Between London Bridge and Greenwich there are a few stretches that are ostensibly "public" but not that easy to access. Some are behind gates that are in fact unlocked, so you can just walk through, if you try, but they don't look very welcoming or accessible so I think a lot of people probably don't even bother. Other times the gates are in fact locked for non-residents and you can access the river by some other more roundabout way.

Bit of an aside, but although the area around Greenwich is lovely, I've always preferred walking the Thames Path out west, eg Putney to Richmond. Very peaceful and green, and IIRC all pretty accessible (apart from a stretch of the path near Barnes that is completely underwater when the tide is high).

I think the south side is the "official" Thames path, but I did think through London the north side was just as doable. I've walked the entire south side but not tried the north yet.

I do recall several difficult bits in the area you describe. One part seemed to have some new "food market" development, which was completely closed when we tried to go through. It got weirder the further we got and we questioned whether we'd gone wrong somehow. Eventually the path just stopped forcing us to double back and make for the road which added a mile or two to the walk.

We haven't had any such problems along to the west, all the way to Maidenhead so far.

Doesn't the UK (or at least England) also have some kind of network of public pathways, many of which are on private property? Are there similar conflicts in that system, or does it work differently somehow?

Yes. It's a little different between England & Wales, Scotland, and NI, but public rights of way (footpaths and bridleways) are very much a thing.

My experience is that it works well in general, but some landowners are better than others, and some highway authorities (which enforce the laws) are more zealous than others. Most of the issues I see around me is farmers allowing crops to grow through low use footpaths such that they become impassable.

The other tricky bit of PRoWs is that any path used by the public for 20 years continuously, without force, secrecy, or the landowner's permission, is legally presumed to be a public right of way, even if it isn't shown on the definitive map kept by the local authority. That can lead to legal fights e.g. [1] and [2]. There are also 'permissive footpaths' where landowners have agreed to allow the public to pass, but not become a PRoW. There are also s106 agreements (planning obligations) where developers must allow the public to use land as a footpath. The Thames Path has a mix of these.

In Scotland, there is a more general 'right to roam' which allows anybody to access most land (excepting buildings and their curtilages, military sites, and other obvious exceptions), but there are affirmative duties to maintain PRoWs that don't apply to open access land making them still relevant. England and Wales have some limited open access land as well, but much much less of it. NI has no open access land and (subjectively) fewer public footpaths.

[1] https://www.ramblers.org.uk/news/ramblers-win-court-appeal-1... [2] https://www.ube.ac.uk/whats-happening/articles/pippa-middlet...

California has a similar issue where all beaches are legally supposed to be public, but owners of beachfront properties often have different ideas...

https://nypost.com/2024/02/29/business/california-hoa-with-f...

https://www.theguardian.com/us-news/2015/oct/02/california-w...

https://www.hcn.org/articles/public-lands-a-battle-over-beac...

Taking a chainsaw to said fence on the request of a non-emergency request line would be perfectly legal. They are obstructing public space, no different from a pothole or an abandoned vehicle.

> you are made to not feel welcome, odd rules, buttons to press etc

Or closed for years at a time due to construction.

The equivalent in San Francisco: https://sfpopos.com/

Interesting!

That site has photos of ~40 locations, about half of those listed on the government-maintained list (which lacks photos): https://data.sfgov.org/Culture-and-Recreation/Privately-Owne...

If you want to find the one that's nearest to you, you can look here (no photos): https://tools.encona.com/sfpopos

There's a Los Angeles one also, https://planning.lacity.gov/preservation-design/privately-ow... but the linked arcgis map doesn't work for me? https://storymaps.arcgis.com/stories/225e307c3ad34e588fa7536...

This is so odd to learn about, thank you. I live in Washington State, USA, and almost all of our beaches are public access. We have a bunch of "public terraces" in Seattle and other cities. hopefully London can move beyond this idea of privatizing access to water features of viewing platforms.

Reading these comments, "The Tragedy of the Commons" [https://pages.mtu.edu/~asmayer/rural_sustain/governance/Hard...] comes to mind: those who frequent London's many little known free roof terraces know that mentioning them here instantly blows their cover.

What about Crossrail Place in Canary Wharf, doesn't count?

Otherwise there are plenty of other roof terraces which are bars/restaurants. Typically more enjoyable as you don't have to book tickets and you get to enjoy a drink.

I think some people might not count Canary Wharf's various gardens as examples of this because while Canary Wharf is a private estate that is open to the public, the parks and green spaces aren't a quiet strategy to get buildings approved, they're part of the estate's broad strategy to be green and welcoming. Canary Wharf actively encourages visitors to all of their green spaces.

When I was younger, I used to think the Shard was daylight robbery. But 16 quid for a signature cocktail and a view (or 12 for a spirit + mixer) is no longer outrageously expensive in London and you'd pay that to go up a skyscraper in many countries anyway. Both Rockefeller and the Empire State are $40+, though you can go outside. Even Aqua Shard, which is apparently in the Michelin guide, "only" charges about 20. Which is bordering on outrageous, but the view is great.

Agree it's worth going up there.

Though while the bar is reasonable, Aqua Shard is overpriced if you're going their to eat (the food is good, but you can get better food for the same/similar price elsewhere, including at Hutong, one floor up).

But if you're going to a bar in the Shard, Gong (52nd floor), Ting (35th) and Hutong (32nd) are all higher up. Gong and Ting also has the advantage that you don't have to pass through that ridiculous security scanner (entrance is via the Shangri La hotel)

Waltz is 19 quid, but it's arguably the best cocktail in London.

The Connaught is up to 40, but more of a fancy establishment.

I built https://exploralista.io exactly for this use case. Still waiting for the universe to make up for my lack of marketing skills.

it's a nice idea!

but yes there is very sparse information and instead of examples i get "NetworkError when attempting to fetch resource." and it says "free" here and there but free forever, free until?

Ah, sorry about the error! I guess it could use some optimisation. It will remain free for the users. I haven't thought about monetisation but for sure it won't be on the final user. Either ads or sponsored places by companies etc. Similar to TripAdvisor

The error is now fixed. It would be great if you could try it again! I'd love feedback on this project.

now the full page is only loading infinitely ; don't sweat it if you're on holiday, i'll be happy to review it another time

oh i found direct access to other pages, like https://exploralista.io/lists/london-best-omakase and https://exploralista.io/lists/best-specialty-coffee-london

i still like it but the design is a bit too basic unfortunately, it looks like a blog ; i think you could offer a few more views like a datatable and a airbnb-like one screen view

First CTA is to signup. For what? 'From the Community' section reports 'Failed to fetch'

No need to sign up to see the lists, in theory. The DB is currently down and I'm currently on holiday in China with only my phone :facepalm:

This is now fixed. Sorry about that, I'd love your feedback on the project.

I think Japan has something similar, does anyone else know? A lot of big buildings have free/open roof terraces.

Most are fairly claustrophobic. The Ikebukuro Seibu building had an amazing, open roof garden with this big reflecting pool round table: https://danzuka.earth/019_seibu-ikebukuro-roof-garden/ . It was pretty quiet, and it was especially great because there are basically no public tables in Ikebukuro, so you could buy food at the shops below and eat it on the roof (plus it had toilets, trash cans, and drink vending machines!)

They just demolished it and replaced 70% of the space with a big BBQ restaurant though. So I feel like either whatever legal requirement they had to create the space must have expired, or maybe it was used as part of the initial pitch when they were getting permits for the building and now that it's established they can walk back guarantees or whatever...

I've been in some of these in a different capital city. It's worth it, the visits have informed be what kind of person I'm. It's a subtle feeling of waste, seeing the people queue to the elevator, and then going all the way up to see some bushes growing in misery but enough concrete and rooftops to, well, keep you assured you are in a city. Many of my friends enjoy those places. I just find it way nicer to go for a long stroll in the woods.

> Tate Modern had high hopes for the 10th floor of the Blatnavik Building with its cafe and a four-sided observation terrace with excellent views of the Thames. Alas it also had great views into the apartments at Neo Bankside whose residents ultimately sued and won, thus if you arrive by lift today you can only visit the cafe.

I was curious about what type of arguments you could make to win a case like this.

"The Supreme Court commented that the degree of overlooking from visitors to the Tate gallery was so extreme it subjected the residents to being “much like being on display in a zoo” and held that there is no reason why constant visual intrusion cannot give rise to liability for nuisance."

https://www.tlt.com/insights-and-events/insight/supreme-cour...

Really strange take, that applies to so many situations where tourists gather

It affected rich people, wouldn't surprise me if one of them knew the judge.

The case was a very big deal in London. The outcome was not one of bias, but complicated circumstance.

The apartment building was built years before the Tate Modern opened their viewing floor. After the Tate Modern viewing floor opened, visitors to the Tate Modern began photographing and videoing and watching people in the neighbouring apartment building.

The judge reasonably determined that there is some sacrifice of privacy made when choosing to live in a glass apartment building, but the Tate Modern's viewing floor's compromise of privacy was so egregious that it should not be allowed regardless of planning permission.

There are many buildings all over London that look over one another, many of those occupied by very very rich people, it was not corruption.

However, Tate got the permission to build the viewing deck before the apartments were built.

After the apartments had been granted planning permission. Apartments came first, no matter what mental gymnastics you engage in.

Absolutely, it's just somewhat wild they got permission to build the deck.

How can privacy be egregiously violated? Isn’t it just you have a window to look in or not? And every building has windows to look in if you choose to not draw the blinds?

If I secretly hide a camera in your bedroom, would the violation of privacy be made more egregious if I then went ahead and broadcast that footage on TV?

>Isn’t it just you have a window to look in or not? And every building has windows to look in if you choose to not draw the blinds?

For example, there would be a pretty big difference between my neighbour being able to see into my apartment and my neighbour organising tour groups to look into my apartment.

I don't mind my neighbour, it is reasonable to expect that my neighbours will be able to see into my apartment. I however could not reasonably expect that my neighbours would host some sort of organised viewing activity on a regular basis.

Well maybe don’t live in a city if you don’t want people to see in your house? I mean seriously floor to ceiling windows.. what the f do you expect?

Actually, sounds like they had a much better solution than moving out of the city: they appealed to a judge, who agreed with them. Sounds like you’re the one out of step with reality here.

I don't mind people seeing into my flat. I would very much mind the specific, egregious behaviour described in the court case.

Which is exactly why you wouldn’t build your house with floor to ceiling windows next to a museum.

The museum only decided to start encouraging the egregious behavior after the flats were built. The museum knew the egregious behavior by their guests was taking place and did not intervene until forced to do so by the courts.

I really don't see how you can read through the court judgements and not arrive at the conclusion that the Tate just really went out of their way to look cartoonishly evil.

You are saying that the Tate specifically encouraged people to take pictures of those flats? The text you linked me to does not say that.

I'm not saying the Tate specifically encouraged people to take pictures of those flats.

I'm saying the Tate encouraged people to take pictures of those flats. They put up a viewing platform where the flats were one of the main events.

So building a balcony makes you cartoonishly evil?

It's the way they acted after they became aware of the problem that makes them look cartoonishly evil.

Isn't it on the individuals occupying the apartment to use curtains of some sort if they don't want to be seen? Unless I'm missing context the museum didn't organize tour groups to specially look into the apartments

> Isn't it on the individuals occupying the apartment to use curtains of some sort if they don't want to be seen?

Sure, but the problem here was explicitly not the individuals occupying the apartments being seen.

>Unless I'm missing context the museum didn't organize tour groups to specially look into the apartments

From the court ruling: "Visitors in the viewing gallery frequently look into the claimants' flats and take photographs, and less frequently view the claimants and their flats with binoculars."

"Photographs of the flats are posted on social media by visitors. On the platform Instagram there were 124 posts in the period between June 2016 and April 2018"

I do not think it's acceptable to subject anyone to this, be they rich or poor.

I did read that part, I still do not see how that justifies closing the museum terrace. The people photographing and sharing online pictures from the flat isn’t on the museum. Make the museum forbid to take pictures from the terrace if that’s the main source of concern. The museum didn’t create the terrace with the intent to showcase the inside of the flats as far as I can tell, it seems they had the permit to build it before the building existed.

Of course it's on the museum, this was an entirely predictable outcome.

And, as I understand it, it was the Tate's initial failure to do anything to restrain their visitors that caused the Supreme Court to decide as they did.

It's worth noting that it has since re-opened - but access to the side directly overlooking the flats is restricted, and there are now signs asking visitors not to take intrusive photos: https://www.timeout.com/london/news/the-tate-modern-has-reop...

Also why not just add privacy film to all the windows?

Why did Tate not reach out to the apartment owners and pay for privacy film installation before they opened the viewing platform?

Curtains were invented several hundred years ago because of this issue.

I didn't know they had instagram and smartphones back then, those were key elements here.

This was a decision made by five supreme court justices in a 3/2 split, do you have any particular reason to believe there has been corruption involved in this UK litigation?

No need for that. It’s England, preferential treatment depends more on your social class than who you know, in such cases. Knowing powerful people definitely can help in some contexts, but the judiciary is well insulated in that respect.

Come on, this was just gross by Tate and the supreme court was right to put a stop to it. I visited the extension before it opened, it was obvious this was going to be a problem.

A busy viewing terrace is not an ordinary use of space, building one looking right into private homes isn't cool regardless of how wealthy the residents of those homes are.

Can’t all tall buildings see into neighboring buildings? I’ve often seen into peoples houses and watched them eat dinner etc.

I think it would be slightly different if you built and advertised a viewing gallery for that purpose.

Yes? That wasn't the complaint.

Do you have 20+ people looking into your home all day long, taking photos and posting them on instagram?

  Visitors in the viewing gallery frequently look into the claimants' flats and take
  photographs, and less frequently view the claimants and their flats with binoculars.
  Photographs of the flats are posted on social media by visitors. On the platform
  Instagram there were 124 posts in the period between June 2016 and April 2018. It has
  been estimated that those posts reached an audience of 38,600. Mann J found that
  there was a significant number of people using the viewing gallery who demonstrated
  a visual interest in the interiors of the flats, including by looking, peering in, taking
  photographs and waving to the occupants. He accepted that their numbers and the
  level of interest were such that a homeowner would reasonably regard this as intrusive
  so far as the use of the south side of the viewing gallery was concerned (by contrast,
  the western side of the viewing gallery is at an oblique angle to the flats, offering only
  a limited view into them).

(This goes on and on, and at no point does it sound any better for Tate)

I am looking at this building on the map and it is surrounded by water, hotels, and restaurants. That doesn’t seem like a pure residential area to me. If you don’t want public to see in your house don’t live next to a museum? This is rich people problems and that’s why it lost like 4 times before somehow winning the final. 100 rich people or 10k museum visitors. Hmmmm who should we prioritize.

> If you don’t want public to see in your house don’t live next to a museum?

That's simply not what the court case was about. I pasted a bit from the ruling in a sibling comment: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=48345234

Every viewing terrace in cities I've been to have a view that lets you see in other people apartment. That's pretty much expected in cities, if you have large glass windows people can see you, and that's why curtains exist. I don't really see how the terrace is the issue here.

I'm looking at the pictures in this article and that doesn't seem egregious: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-64481260

>I'm looking at the pictures in this article and that doesn't seem egregious: https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-england-london-64481260

That's just a function of the lenses being used. The distance is 34 metres, you could see very well into the flats.

I've been on the viewing platform, you had a very good view into the rather nice looking flats. Most people who came on the platform spent a good chunk of time staring at those flats, because they happen to be one of the more interesting things to view from the platform.

You might be surprised to find out how few people on the very progressive r/london subreddit were upset by this supreme court decision, probably because they were actually familiar with the situation: https://www.reddit.com/r/london/comments/10qqey4/flat_owners...

Are we reading the same reddit thread? It looks like most of the people in the comments are against the decision.

Supreme Court judges do not express "takes". They make legal judgements and express legal opinion based on years of experience and deep knowledge of the law. They deserve a bit more respect than a likening to some random Redditor having a "take"

Note that this comment does not apply to every country.

Good thing the post is about the UK and we here are capable of staying on topic

You're describing what a take is... It's not a reddit term. A supreme court isn't a holy entity that requires special deference or language when talking about their activity. What a ridiculous reaction

And? We have countless examples of Supreme Court and other judges twisting laws beyond recognition. Just look at all the crazy stuff that invokes the commerce clause which is obviously not what anyone who wrote it ever intended or anyone who reads it to expect.

Supreme Court rulings should be the most highly scrutinized and criticized of all legal rulings, and include the ethical and moral implications behind them.

British people don't have curtains?

Not really, it’s very common in the UK to not having curtains or closed curtains even if you live on the street level. You can walk in a town and literally watch TV through the windows.

In a tall apartment / skyscraper I bet not more than 10% ever have or close their curtain. Also they paid those prices to look at that view so they want to do that. (A flat there is £1-5M)

Curtains open, telly blaring and the big light on. You could be on any street in Britain.

> You can walk in a town and literally watch TV through the windows.

Only if you have a license, right?

> Alas it also had great views into the apartments at Neo Bankside whose residents ultimately sued and won, thus if you arrive by lift today you can only visit the cafe

bummer

I try to pop to One New Change whenever I’m in London just to visit the terrace there. If you’re in the area, worth a look!

Can you go up without going to the restaurant?

As of ~3 years ago (and according to this: https://www.onenewchange.com/en/roof-terrace#:~:text=Open%20... ) I think so yeah, but the restaurant/bar try really hard to make it look like you're not supposed to be there without actually telling you that you're not allowed to be there.

Been to most of these. They're nice.

If you've got friends/fam with you it is definitely worth paying for the observation deck at the shard.

Really cool!!

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