> When discussing LLM pricing, people are missing the plot. [ ... snipped ...] Your 90$ Claude subscriptions give you close to $1000 to $4000 in equivalent API token pricing.
And you think it is unreasonable to consider this unsustainable?
And you think it is unreasonable to consider this unsustainable?
Looking at the pricing of 1-2T models like Kimi or DeepSeek on the open market, I'm tempted to assume that inference costs are closer to subscription pricing than to API pricing.
Especially considering that subscriptions a) distribute load over time via rate limits, and b) will include a lot of users who get only a fraction of the possible value, whether they are on a personal account where they are on the rate limit on the weekend but barely use it during the week, or are corporate users who were issued an account they rarely use. Subscription prices are usually measured on the average case, not the most extreme value a power user can get out of it
Of course they do have to "make bank" in some way to offset the insane training costs. But whether they go for high prices or high volume, or offer some services as a loss leader to drive profits elsewhere is somewhat orthogonal to that
pure speculation. about as valuable as my linked wsj reporting i suppose. given thats the case, maybe you shouldnt claim so confidently that they are money incinerators.
Back to the point: No one is profitable yet, which I think we both agree is accurate. If you are going to lean on “they will be soon” then it’s fair to say they’re going to IPO soon.
Ease off the gas. We’re just discussing a tech company.
One thing that really stinks to me is that various AI boosters have been claiming insane profit margins (40%, 50%, ...), yet apparently Anthropic stands to (possibly) make $500M profit on $11B in expenses, that's clearly nowhere near 50%. Not to mention that they're not making profit on inference now.
So where do people get this confidence to pull random numbers from?
That's why talking about the profitability of inference without accounting for model training is interesting, because that is the deciding factor in whether more customers would help getting them in the green
But it's just that. A gut feeling.
So just going on vibes?
While some people don't like his content, Ed Zitron shows a lot of evidence for your assumption being very wrong.
These companies are bleeding cash at ungodly rates. It's likely their API pricing is still subsidized if you look at their overall financial picture.
Related, there's a good reason those API prices keep going up a lot every new version and it's not just because the models are better.
Also, API prices going up a lot every new version is more an OpenAI thing, and even there it's a recent trend: GPT 5.0 was a big price drop compared to 4.1, and 4.1 was cheaper than 4o, which itself got a price cut at some point and is cheaper than 4. Meanwhile Anthropic's API pricing stayed stable for many versions, then got slashed to a third with the 4.2 release and have stayed at that level since.
Their business model is selling inference but the training and other costs have to be accounted for somehow. Unless I'm missing something obvious, inference costs must go up drastically if these companies are going to survive beyond the subsidy stage.
If that doesn't work, then yes, then prices will have to go up
There was a lot of hype and exploration of capabilities, but models aren't evolving fast enough to keep that going, so I'm settling down into a familiarity with what an LLM can and can't do that means I am using them less overall that I was 6 months ago when I was throwing everything under the sun at it just to see what happened.
Without either new model breakthroughs or dramatically _lower_ costs, I will be very surprised if the ultimate market doesn't end up within an order of magnitude of where it is today.
I think this is minimally likely. While as individuals on the bleeding edge, we're perhaps using these tools less and less, and our echo chamber reinforces that, the penetration of AI into the normal corporate workplace is still very low - emails rewritten with ChatGPT, meeting notes summaries generated by default, etc. There are a million use cases for LLMs which are not yet built out. The tokenmaxxers will begin using AI less, but the penetration into the mass market will continue at a huge velocity.
Reminds me of the crypto hype but where the hype agents are some of the largest companies in the world.
For context, ChatGPT business subscriptions give you a fixed pool of credits to use, after which you get billed a la carte at inflated 1.75x rates vs API, or if you don't want to pay, you get access to anything but the non-reasoning models turned off for the month.
We also tried Claude Enterprise, which was unusable as people blew through their monthly limits in a matter of hours.