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Comment by ShinyLeftPad | Hacker News Reader

The price is not the important part, it basically doesn't matter. On top of subsidies and government policy aiming to undermine manufacturing in EU and elsewhere, domestic consumption in PRC is laughably low and government policies act to transfer wealth from households to manufacturing. Locals won't buy the supply, PRC literally has to get these cars somewhere or trash them.

Now if those cars are actually good, price independent, then that would be worth mentioning.

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Do you have any references for your statements?

The majority of car sales in China are EVs (which is more than the UK, the EU and the US) so locals are buying the supply right now.

Reference: https://ourworldindata.org/electric-car-sales

Sure.

China domestic consumption is laughably low: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_countries_by_household... (lower than Kosovo, Sri Lanka, lower than world average) https://bst-europe.eu/economy-security-trade/more-and-more-w...

Locals won't buy EV supply: https://asia.nikkei.com/business/automobiles/china-s-domesti... https://www.bloomberg.com/features/2023-china-ev-graveyards/

The articles you provided were relatively light on relevant facts, but did cite two important values - 60% of all vehicles purchased in China are now EVs, and domestic sales of such are about 1.4 million per month. The data they conspicuously left out is, well how many EVs are sold elsewhere per month? In the US, ostensibly the largest consumer market in the world, the figure is 0.082 million per month. [1]

Even if we scale US sales to adjust for population differences, the Chinese are picking up electric vehicles at a dramatically higher rate - and the single highest in the world. And this is almost certainly due to companies like BYD and others providing quality electric vehicles at prices below even cheap ICE vehicles.

[1] - https://www.anl.gov/esia/light-duty-electric-drive-vehicles-...

How is it relevant how many EVs are sold in the US? The country obviously prefers internal combustion engines.

I am saying that PRC is a command economy, EV production is strongly subsidized, no labor protection, falling domestic sales and crazy low domestic consumption in general, a lot of excess of EVs to the extent that they are trashed instead of resold, and so comparing EVs by price to European EVs is silly. Nothing you say contradicts me.

Yes Chinese buy lots of EV so what? And if you mistake this for choice or how great Chinese EVs are, I have news for you. https://www.kaggle.com/datasets/bogof666/shanghai-car-licens... https://www.cpopartners.com/chinas-green-push-shanghai-2025-...

Your entire premise was that domestic consumption of EVs in China is low, "laughably low" as you put it. That is an absurd statement when they have, by a very wide margin, the highest consumption rate in the world not only as a whole, but even per capita - at least relative to major economies. If you want to argue that global EV consumption rates are low then that's an entirely different topic.

Did you see my link that shows per capita household consumption in PRC lower than world average and places like Kosovo or Sri Lanka?

Here's a relevant article https://www.ft.com/content/f294be55-98c4-48f0-abce-9041ed236...

> If you want to argue that global EV consumption rates are low

No. Do you read my comments? I argue China subsidizes production of more and more EVs and buys less and less domestically, so they will be sold at unfair prices and comparing them by price to European EVs is pointless.

Chinese nominal consumption rates are low because prices remain low in China, far lower than PPP accounts for. Being able to buy a new EV for < $10k there is not some outlier, but a component of their overall economy where a single dollar goes way further than pretty much anywhere in the world. They're the largest economy in the world now and have a cost of living less than half the global median. They are very much like the US was in the 50s-60s, in a variety of different ways.

Beyond this, you have to keep in mind that overly simplified explanations for their successes fail to a very simple sniff test. If you could achieve what China is achieving with e.g. subsidization then every single country in the world would be doing exactly that, not the least of which being the US. Most Western economies are drowning in debt with GDPs being increasingly farcically propped up by government spending, yet we have, relative to China, less than nothing to show for it. We get all the negative consequences, but none of the benefits, at least not for the common man.

> Chinese nominal consumption rates are low because prices remain low in China

Personally been to countries with higher consumption than China and lower prices, so nope.

> If you could achieve what China is achieving

If you mean "heading towards an economic catastrophe" then sure. Suppressing domestic consumption is catching up with them.

Are you seriously pointing at western country government spending while talking about PRC? That's funny.

China's GDP to debt ratio is lower than the US' while continuing to have a rapidly growing economy, whereas US growth is not only significantly less but trending downward. About 17% of Chinese GDP is accounted for by government spending, in the US it's now up to 36%. And bond yields for China are dramatically lower than in the US, meaning all of their debt also comes way cheaper.

Claiming they're headed for economic catastrophe is rather the same sort of claim as you were making above - okay, they're headed for economic catastrophe but have some of the best economic metrics relative to other major economic powers, in much the same way that they have "laughably low" consumption of EVs yet purchase more EVs than anywhere else in the world.

This is not the best metrics for many reasons, and the actual spending is more than 30% (with higher share going to manufacturing vs. households compared to western countries), and government deficit relative to GDP is higher than in the US, but we go way off topic. I am glad you agree that comparing Chinese EVs by price to European ones is pointless though.

These are not numbers solely from China, they are measured by third parties. They're certainly at least as reliable as the numbers I'm citing for the US.

And the entire point here is that comparing Chinese to European EVs by price is completely reasonable. There's a reason that Chinese EVs are taking over the world and European EVs are essentially unheard of, and price is definitely a big part of that.

China is, again, very much like the US in the 50s-60s - a complete manufacturing behemoth with a tiny cost of living and tremendous economic opportunity which all adds up to creating an amazing situation for people (and the world at large). They just need to avoid the trap the US fell into some decades later.

> There's a reason that Chinese EVs are taking over the world and European EVs are essentially unheard of, and price is definitely a big part of that

Sorry can't take this seriously anymore. By your logic if I give you a shitty laptop for $1 because I would literally have to trash it otherwise you therefore say it's 1000000% better than a Macbook because it's so cheap. Pretty much says it all.

BYDs aren't just cheap, they're also great cars. Western economies have become extremely dysfunctional, probably in large part due to everything being run by bottom feeder MBAs who can't see beyond the tip of their noses. It's not only possible to have cheap+good, but I think ultimately necessary for a healthy economy.

If you are not comparing by price then what's the point of this? I only replied "don't compare by price" because it seems like the original comment was doing it and it is a very common mistake. If you are correctly comparing a cheap Chinese car with an expensive EU car then you are not making that mistake.

I still don't get what you're trying to argue. Price obviously matters. If two cars offer even remotely comparable value and one is priced at $10k and the other is priced at $50k then the latter is going to play basically no role in the global market, or even domestic if our $10k car isn't banned.

We might look at something like Aston Martin. They make great cars, but they're very expensive and not that much nicer than just a 'regular' car. As a result, the company is now on the verge of bankruptcy. And BYD (and Chinese companies more generally) are essentially doing the same thing to those 'regular' cars that they did to Aston Martin, to say nothing of other EVs. If the West can't relearn how to produce cheap + high quality, then we will have no role in the economy of the future, at least not if China maintains on its current trajectory.

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