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Comment by WarmWash | Hacker News Reader

AI aside, if we just look at other engineering disciplines in mature sectors, the future is not bright(er).

No fully paid golden cadillac benefits packages (for your dog too!), no twice daily uber eats comps, no $150k entry level, no unlimited PTO, no 6 months leave.

If you go to your uncles engineering department at the boiler company, these guy's engineering roles are about as pampered as the warehouse managers.

The upside is that it will cull those in it just for the money/lifestyle, and concentrate it down to those in it for the love of the craft.

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Two things:

1) Unlimited PTO is a scam. Ask anyone who ever got paid out six weeks salary when they changed jobs.

2) “the craft” is doing some heavy lifting here. I happen to enjoy AI-assisted dev, but it is nothing like the work that drew me to the industry.

Otherwise agreed on all counts.

Unlimited PTO works great for someone like me who regularly takes half day and full day PTO every quarter for various commitments/life stuff. But I’m also a guy and I have no problem asserting myself/spending my benefits. People who are a little less comfortable with that end up just parking on it and would do a lot better if they were given a set number of PTO days. The ambiguity hurts them in the same way not having set raise schedules and discussions hurts them.

Edit: folks, I can assure you I take a lot more than 10 days of PTO. I didn’t even say how many half/full days I take, you’re assuming a lot though I get my language could’ve been more clear there. I probably take between 20-30 days total annually. I am saying that because of unlimited PTO, it is very easy to just grab half days and full days as needed routinely and not worry about my overall count.

You have it backwards. You’d benefit tremendously from fixed PTO that pays out because you’re taking fewer than 10 days a year. Its biggest benefactors are low-seniority employees who take 20-30 days annually.

Before unlimited PTO took off, standard in FAANG-like (US) industry was ~12 corp holidays + 15-25 days annual PTO, depending on seniority.

I don’t know anyone who takes the high end of that anymore, especially senior/staff folks.

Unlimited PTO takes a liability off the company’s books, and makes every time off request a negotiation.

> Unlimited PTO takes a liability off the company’s books, and makes every time off request a negotiation.

This is 100% it.

Yeah exactly. For some of us that is not a problem but for most people it seems to create issues. Company culture also plays a huge factor in that. Grey areas tend to hurt employees the most!

To be clear we still get federal holidays. So I net probably 30-40 days a year.

Again, the system works for me. But it is also a constant negotiation/workplace culture consideration, so I am not advocating for it writ large. I’m just lucky I work at a company that doesn’t put pressure on people not to utilize their PTO.

> someone like me who regularly half day and full day PTO every quarter

So you take something less than 10 days off a year?

In all developed countries bar one that is against the law for being so few days off.

You are being abused.

No, that is incorrect. See my edit

> I probably take between 20-30 days total annually

Great! Bare minimum legal in most developed countries for a factory worker or shelf stocker!

Ok… but that’s a larger conversation about the US and PTO. I’m not saying it’s some amazing situation that is the envy of the world. With federal holidays I get about 30-40 days off a year. In the US that’s pretty good, unfortunately.

I’m just telling you it’s not less than 10 days and unlimited PTO system works for my needs. Ease off the gas.

Many people are posting in this thread that factually people take less PTO when it’s unlimited.

It is not a good thing

You take 1.5x4 = 6 days of vacation per YEAR and use this as an argument for... wait... what exactly?

Huh?

Please read my edit

At my current job I get 25 days of PTO a year, with a cap of 30 days, plus company holidays (12 or so?), plus 5 days the entire company shuts down. I have to be careful not to hit my cap even taking 4 weeks of vacation because it’s still less than I earn. You have “unlimited” pto and take half of the vacation I do. If you ever change jobs you’ll get $0, while I’ll get a bonus.

> Unlimited PTO is a scam

Well, no. It's just the target beneficiary is not you (the employees) but the employer.

Unlimited PTO resolves the employer from paying out PTO when they make you "redundant".

It's more than that. Unlimited PTO in practice also results in people taking less time off.

Some people have to be reminded to take time off for themselves (like me in my early years), and without a predefined amount of PTO and an expiration mechanism, there's nothing stopping them from going extended periods without taking any time for themselves.

Most people grow out of that eventually, but their gems turn black before they fully advocate for their own work/life balance.

The other side to that coin is that when employees take varying amounts of time off, it becomes easy for managers to pressure anyone taking more time off to conform with those who take less (and sometimes none at all).

"Its not a scam, its just that the target beneficiary is the scammer."

???

> The upside is that it will cull those in it just for the money/lifestyle, and concentrate it down to those in it for the love of the craft.

Is that what you see at your uncle's boiler company? People who are truly in it "for the love of the craft"?

Yeah wtf? If programming becomes a generic white collar job, it's not really accurate to characterize the people as "those in it for the love of the craft". After all, do you think the average accountant or analyst is doing it "for the love of the craft"?

Nobody does a 6 month bootcamp so they can get into a fastener engineering career making $85k/yr.

That is a SV thing, in many places it is a regular office job.

You are already in a treat if having free coffee and fruit.

You don't need to look at other engineering jobs, just look at software engineers out side the US. We make decent money compared to the local market, but we've never had the royal treatment that US devs seem to get.

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